Carcassonne Central

I have it in my grubby little mitts right now 8)

More to follow!

So, here's the scans in low quality:
(http://homepage.mac.com/mjharper/carc6/small/tiles1.jpg)(http://homepage.mac.com/mjharper/carc6/small/tiles2.jpg)(http://homepage.mac.com/mjharper/carc6/small/tiles3.jpg)(http://homepage.mac.com/mjharper/carc6/small/rules1.jpg)(http://homepage.mac.com/mjharper/carc6/small/rules2.jpg)

Anybody who wants to see these at higher quality (approx. 1 MB each)can use these links. They're in the same order as shown above.

• http://homepage.mac.com/mjharper/carc6/tiles1.jpg
• http://homepage.mac.com/mjharper/carc6/tiles2.jpg
• http://homepage.mac.com/mjharper/carc6/tiles3.jpg
• http://homepage.mac.com/mjharper/carc6/rules1.jpg
• http://homepage.mac.com/mjharper/carc6/rules2.jpg

Commentary to follow…

First off, new rules for old expansions.

The rules for King and Scout (now listed as King and Robber Baron, since it isn't coupled with the tiles for Hunters and Gatherers any more) are virtually unchanged. Oddly, the tile with the 'bridge' city has lost the clarification that, if the two segments are joined together, they only count as one segment.

The rules for The River II are also largely unchanged, except that the opening sentence is changed from 'The river is placed first' to 'The river is placed at the beginning of the game'. Odd choice of word for 'game', though—usually the rules say Spiel, here they use Partie, and I haven't seen that before. Also, the rules now add that the original starting tile is not needed.

The Count of Carcassonne receives a number of updates which might be of interest to the rule-hounds among us.

• There's a much improved graphic, for a start.
• There's also a clarification of the quarters of the city.
• Where the rules used to say 'before the establishment of the majority' (or whatever it was!) they now say 'before scoring'.
• There is now a clarification that 'in this way, followers may thus be deployed to already occupied features.'
• The clarification about how to combine The Count with The River has now been omitted.
• In the clarification about Traders and Builders, the rules now say that the builder allows 'a double-turn' rather than 'two turns'; and also that, through the builder, a follower may be moved to CC in each 'part-turn' rather than in 'both turns'. This is interesting as it incorporates the ruling that the double-turn is a single turn…

I think that's it. I'll find better translations and incorporate the new rules into the CAR next time I update.

Next up: the new tiles & rules.

Shrines and heretics
The five shrine tiles should be mixed in with the other tiles.
Shrines are placed and scored in the same way as a cloister. If a player deploys a follower to the shrine, this follower is called a heretic.

Placement of shrines
A shrine may not be placed in such a way that it adjoins several cloisters. Similarly, a cloister may not be placed so that it neighbours several shrines.
If a player places a shrine directly (horizontally, vertically, or diagonally) next to the cloister of another player and deploys a heretic to it, a challenge is laid down to the monk. The same is true when a monk is deployed to a cloister directly next to a heretic. Challenging your own monk or heretic is also possible.

The challenge
The challenge is about who can finish their building first. The player who finishes their building first scores 9 points, while the other player scores nothing. Both followers are then returned to their owners.
If a challenge has not been resolved by the end of the game, both players receive the usual points awarded for cloisters.
If a player places a shrine, he or she may, as usual, choose to deploy a follower to the farm, road or city segment of the tile, instead of to the shrine itself.
__________
A few points on translation: I should point out why I decided to go with 'shrine' as a translation of Kultstätte, while the BGG game summary uses 'cult places'. The correct translation—according to my Collins dictionary— should actually be 'place of worship'. Kult is a false friend, which can mean both 'cult' and 'worship'—so, for example, Kultbild means 'religious symbol' and Kultsprache means 'language of worship'. Also, 'shrine' seemed to be the best word to describe the drawing on the tiles themselves.

The 'plot element' here seems to be that the heretics are taking over places of worship, rather than building up secular strongholds…

Thanks for that Matt. I'll think i'll reserve my judgement on this expansion for the time being.

Review-type section

Preliminary thoughts
Before everyone jumps on this expansion and complains that it's a pointless collection with five new tiles to entice you into buying 31 tiles you've already got, I'd like to remind you that not everyone has all those expansions, and some of them are rather hard to get hold of now. The fact that we're all obsessive geeks does not mean the expansion is bad simply because it is a compilation.

That said, this isn't the best possible compilation, and not only because it doesn't include the much sought-after Cathar set (it was never really likely to, as that set is owned by Spielbox. not HiG). It's a mixed bag, in the end: King and Scout is impossible to find, while The Count is still readily available in shops (at least in Germany). Also, while the duplicate tiles from K&S are fine, since they can just be mixed in with the usual tiles—as can those of The River II—the tiles from The Count are utterly useless if you've already got that expansion. There is no logical way to combine to copies of that set, while two having River II are hardly likely to be an issue for most people.

My Verdict
A good expansion for newcomers, it would be fourth of the 'large' expansions that I'd recommend buying (after Inns, Traders, and Abbey, but before Princess and Tower), simply because I think the extra tiles—the river, the pig-herd, the King and the Robber Baron, and so on—are pretty fine game elements. If you're already got most of the expansions contained in here, then it's obviously one to get for the sake of completion.

Yes it does, and I'm not happy! I've always hated "greatest hits"-album that includes new meterial as well. Compile the previous expansions togheter - fine. Add new material - bollocks!

Nevertheless, I'll probably buy it anyway (as I always did with the Greatest hits), I just can't help myself  :(8

I'll justifie it by getting more nice tiles.

 {po

I already knew I wasn't going to win you over with that argument from comments you've made elsewhere. But there's no harm in trying…  ;)

Anyway, I actually agree in principle. I'm not a big fan of greatest hits albums—but they do serve a purpose, especially for bands I don't like enough to buy everything they've ever recorded. Although we might grumble about the strategy behind it, I still think we should keep in mind that for some people, this expansion will be just perfect…

Also, I'm an admin, and it's my job to pretend to be objective.
 :a4

Haha; booo!!  :bt2

Ok, my thoughts. I don't mind having a copy of this set, even though I own the expansions included. The 5 heretic tiles are a must have (although i'm not sure as yet if they will get used or not!!!!), but I do wish they would have marked the tiles on the front with a different logo for each mini-expansion. They all have 'crown' symbols! I do like the idea of front tile markings so the sets can be seperated quicker when need be, so I suppose marking them all with a crown isn't so bad after all! How's that for a contradiction? The river tiles are pretty distinguishable (they have a river on!), leaving only King & Robber Baron and Heretics to sort (The Count is obvious)... and that's not difficult, is it?

My first thoughts on the heretic cards is that I don't like the sound of the way they play. This is going to need a proper play test to see if the idea of them works well.

Anyone know when RGG are going to publish? I don't want to import the expansion in from Germany... I won't know the rules!!! ;)

Yeah much in agreement here. A Great expansion for people who dont have them already. But it is going to be bought to get the new tiles for the Shrines  :D Also in buying this one it saves me having to buy another river two expansion (which I wa planning on) as its included so I can now have mega rivers with branches woo hoo.

So maybe not the best release in the world but at least it gives everyone something.

Hmm cheers Matt, dont label us all the same as you mate  ;) ;D ;) ;D

@Tobias & canada steve:

 {gh

Seriously though, I agree with canada steve that having all the expansions in the box isn't really a problem. K&S only has five tiles anyway, and the epic über-rivers possible if you already have The River II should really be a sight to behold. A duplicated Count is still a pain…

Still, I picked up my copy for €9.99. People are talking about getting The Cathars for €40. Even if you do only want the five new tiles, it's not that bad…

btw, I heard a rumour that RGG would be publishing the Shrines and Heretics part separately…

Watch eBay for countless (groan sorry) copies of The Count being flogged off.... ;D

Abd when will you lot over the Channel stop using that strange currency, I never know how much you are on about  ;D

I know. It is strange! €9.99 is about £7.50... and, for those across the big pond, thats about $15.  ;D

Well, it's supposed to be €3=£2, and €1=$1. Obviously that fluctuates a bit, so at the moment I'd estimate that €10=£7=$13.
 F:)

King and Robber Baron tiles could have done without the crown symbol; pretty obvious which expansion they are from. I was expecting a different symbol on the River II tiles, but oh well.

Where clarifications have been omitted in these new rules, are they going to be omitted as well in the Annotated Rules, relegated to footnotes, or left as-is?

The definition of "several" is slightly ambiguous. I suspect that it should mean three or more. Not really fair for two cloisters to battle a single shrine.

According to BGG, the HiG version of the Big Box doesn't include the first River expansion. How are Germans supposed to get their hands on it who don't have it already? Is it still available as a separate mini-expansion over there?

The completionist in me is not caring that I already have most of the expansions. Lately I have been feeling inclined to purchase the RGG Big Box, especially following my purchase of Abbey & Mayor which has the separation symbols printed on each tile. Also, the Big Box takes up less space, so it's easier to transport to a friend's house. (Although there are other solutions, part of me prefers to keep things intact.) Last but not least, some of the tiles have improved artwork in cases where roads were supposed to end at an intersection. I think these same inclinations are going to make me buy the full 6th expansion.

I changed to the HiG Big Box, shipped in from Germany. It was about £40 to buy and ship in. I am much happier with it, and have sold my RGG copies of Carc, I&C and T&B, but I kept the River from the Carc box as that is not included in the HiG Big Box. I was going to add the Tower and P&D anyway, so it was more cost effective to buy the Big Box. I also prefer the symbols on my tiles for seperation purposes.

Agreed. The symbol is inconsistently applied: useless on the King and Robber Baron tiles, and not on the Count tiles at all…

I'm thinking they should be relegated to footnotes, which has been the previous method… There's no reason to think that the these clarifications are now somehow wrong… I could ask if you want me too.

Disagree here. It has to mean two or more, because the moment there are two (say, cloisters) you can't determine which one you've challenged. Wouldn't be fair, as you say, and lead to many problems…

Can't get it; end of story. I got my copy with the PC game. Has some dumb numbers on the back, but otherwise it's fine. I think The River II was actually meant to replace the first, not expand it…

Yeah, as Joff said, the Big Box is nice. I'd like to have it too. As far as size is concerned, I've got everything—everything—in the original box. Gonna run out of room soon…

I don't think it's that they are now considered wrong, but obvious enough not to need mentioning.


I think we're actually trying to say the same thing. When I said two, I didn't mean two cloisters, but one cloister and one shrine. This would mean that a group of two or more cloisters is protected from being challenged by a shrine, and a group of two or more shrines is protected from being challenged by a cloister. The only fair challenge is 1 vs. 1.

Oops, my bad. I didn't bother to read the introductory section of the rules (the bold part), which says (slightly free translation):

This expansion consists of four mini-expansions which can be integrated into the game together or individually. It is not recommended to combine The Count of Carcassonne and The River II, as situations may arise in which it is impossible to place tiles properly.
In other words, the official position seems now to be that you should use either one or the other…

It figures, I go away on holidays and the interesting stuff happens!

My observations (however weak they are):

1. New stuff keeps mjharper busy!
2. Getting a set with tiles you already have means 2 things: either bigger mega-Carc sessions or else available tiles to make your own expansions!

Welcome back! Hope you had a good one!

Is true.  ::)

I've been thinking about that… perhaps we should call it Ultra-Mega-Carc  ;D

I was under the impression that as long as you pointed the river away from the city, everything would be good.

Yup… But I guess that, with enough tiles you could still double back on yourself and head back towards the city.

I still reckon that my house rule—lay the river first, then fit CC in the position that fits most sides—is the coolest solution here.

Back to basics:
(1) When does it come out in the UK?
(2) Does anyone know if Heretics is to be released as a seperate box?
(3) ...er... what's the whole thing called (in English)!

I've said elsewhere that I think it's wrong to include new with old, and it's been well documented here. There is a lot of sensen releasing the small boxes in one big one for those who've not got them... but not with new stuff!!!! If I buy this it will be the third time I've bought the Count, and I don't even like that one! (Bought it on it's own, then got it in a complete set lot from ebay now this).

Is it possible to you fit the Tower (the actual tile holder/thing, not the expansion) inside the original box and still have enough space leftover for everything else???  I've got almost everything, except P&D and Cathars, but 2 copies of River2 all in my original (not Big) box.  It's getting rather full at the moment.


In reverse order:
(3) The german name translated into English is "Count, King and Consort"
(2) There has been some noise that the 5 tiles maybe released as a mini-expansion of some sort.  Hopefully, it won't be in a german magazine :)
(1) I have no idea :(

Yup. Well, to be fair, it does stand a couple of millimetres proud, but nothing that's a problem. I'll try and upload a photo later. Basically, I put the tower dispenser in first, then fill it with tiles, and fit the other bits in around it.

Not likely, since that would undercut sales of the 6th expansion. But when the Cathars came out (and the Almanac, for that matter), we didn't have the forum… I just know I'm gonna get an order for 400 copies from our members if it's ever reprinted ;)

Edit: there's a photo of my carc box here (http://www.carcassonnecentral.com/index.php?option=com_smf&Itemid=26&topic=232.0)

They should have just made a 'heretics' mini expansion with the cult places or whatever and the cathars. I reckon they would get more sales but i doubt they would be able to do cathars.

I hope they do this as well.  Would it infuriate people if they included the 5 tiles with either (a)new tiles or (b)the game quarterly tiles?  I don't plan to get K,C&C, so I don't think it'll affect me either way - in fact, it might be nice if they do include either (a) or (b)  :o

I have been away from the forum for awhile with a big move, travel and now on vacation in Germany where I just bought K,C&C myself from Amazon.de and well as Abbey and Mayor. The geek in me made me get it just for the 5 new cards but as most everyone indicated having extra tiles is not really an issue and as far as the Count goes I like the graphic much better so that make it a little less painful.

I play tested it last night with just the basic, abbey and K,C&C and it seems pretty good.  In fact there was a much bigger focus on cloisters and shrines and I found they were finished much quicker then in normal games where they get started and you get partial points and your Gefolksman (meeple) just sits there the whole game.

My only complaints are that the graphic seems a little strange and compared to the other tiles and what is that red thing with the white head in the shrine. I was expecting a nice sacraficial stone table with stones around ... a la Stone Henge ... but I will use them anyway.  My second is now I have two expansions with the shaded symbol to separate the cards and the rest of my tiles are the original so I am deciding whether to go to the big box for consistancy as well. By the way what is the difference between the 2 Big Box editions? As with MJ all mine are in the original boxes as well although I sacrificed one or two tuck sheets to make tiles in the beginning although I keep everything now in the nice wooden box of Carcassonne Die Stadt. It keeps everything nice and together.

Also I am not sure if it is still the case but when I first started collecting Carcassonne I also could not find the first river so I purchased an second basic set from Rio Grande that included the first river.  For those who are looking you may want to look there.  As always I am open to assisting those from either side of the Atlantic to acquire whatever is wanted or needed since my last attempt to locate Cathars went down in flames.  K,C&C 9.95 Euro, Abbey and Mayor 7.95 Euro from amazon.de. If your interested in the US, let me know I don't have so much room in my luggage but I can bring a few especially if you do not want the boxes and you can avoid shipping from Germany (I don't know if K,C&C is available state side yet).

I believe the only difference is the inclusion of the River in the RGG Big Box version. HiG does not include the River in its Big Box release.

…which is probably part of the rationale behind The River II being in Count, King and Consorts.

But don't forget the other difference: RGG rules! ;D

Hello all, My first post here!

I'm definately new to the Carcassonne scene, and am a completist.  I'm thinking I might use homemade tiles for cathars and heretic.  My question is; are the rues for heretic going to be included in the annotated rules any time soon?  I would love to make a bound up and pretty  game manual using the most up to date rules...thanks!

Hi, welcome to the forums!

The Complete Annotated Rules are being thoroughly revised at the moment, as you can read here (http://www.carcassonnecentral.com/forum/index.php?topic=38.135). And there's a draft of the new version (http://homepage.mac.com/mjharper/CARnew.pdf)—that already contains the rules for Shrines and Heretics.

I hope to have a finished version of the new rules out around the end of the month/start of next month, so if you're after a bound copy, I'd wait a while!

Not only that, but there will have to be an update soon after, as RGG are publishing their own 6th expansion…

So.....are you saying I should wait for this next expansion before binding up the rules all pretty?

Well, I would :)

It saves binding up a copy of ver 4.1 to have the new ver 5 a few weeks later!