Title: Questions for HiG—deadline 25 January Post by: mjharper on January 20, 2008, 03:29:43 pm Okay, I should have done this a while back, but personal stuff/work/study have all conspired against me recently.
I'd like to propose this thread as a place to collect questions for HiG on any subject, but in particular Abbey & Mayor. If anyone can think of any, or remembers seeing any on forums which needed to be answered, but haven't post 'em here. Remember to check the old clarifications thread (http://www.carcassonnecentral.com/index.php?option=com_smf&Itemid=26&topic=191.0) as well. Any if anyone thinks of corrections to the questions proposed, feel free to comment. The plan is to collect everything together by next Friday 25 January (when I finish the ?*=§"$# essay I have to write); I'll get the questions translated over the weekend, and then posted off. Hopefully we'll get the answers back and up and edited into the CAR before the 1 March anniversary… So, if there's anything you want to ask, or anything you have asked and are peeved that it hasn't yet been answered, now's the time to post! Title: Re: Questions for HiG—deadline 25 January Post by: mjharper on January 20, 2008, 03:33:52 pm John Sweeney sent me these a while back (sorry John):
1) If you use the new three-way tile and the Baron, is the length of the road the longest distance between two ends, or the total number of tiles in the road? 2) If I have an Abbey left and I pick the very last tile up and play it to an element where I have a Builder, then is the game over because the last tile (apart from Abbeys) has been played? Or am I allowed to play my Abbey on my extra turn from the Builder? 3) If the player on my right plays the last tile has the game finished? Or, if I have an Abbey left, can I say, "No I want my turn. I choose not to take a tile, but to play my Abbey"? 4) What is the definition of "connected" for the Wagon? If two castle walls are touching (maybe even only at a point), can I drive my Wagon from one to another? Another one just came up on here (http://www.carcassonnecentral.com/index.php?option=com_smf&Itemid=26&topic=222.0) 5) Can you deploy a wagon to a city, score it, and then move the wagon to another feature, all in one turn? Or can you only move the wagon instead of deploying a normal follower? Title: Re: Questions for HiG—deadline 25 January Post by: mjharper on January 20, 2008, 03:41:33 pm Another one (from here (http://www.boardgamegeek.com/article/1877464#1877464))
6) Blue has a mayor in a city with no pennants. Does the city count as occupied? And if so, when the city is scored, will blue score points? In other words, is a majority of zero 'higher' than no occupation at all? (something like that) ??? Title: Re: Questions for HiG—deadline 25 January Post by: dwhitworth on January 21, 2008, 01:59:34 pm Matt,
You may want to consider some or all of these items for confirmation or alternative ruling from HiG: 1. If a player completes a city/road with an Abbey tile and their builder is on the city/road, does the city/road get 'extended" by the Abbey, and if so does the player get another tile? (?? No - because the Abbey contains no road/city segments ??) 2. If cities with trade goods are completed by placement of an Abbey tile, are the goods tokens awarded as usual to the player placing the Abbey tile? 3. If an Abbey tile completes a road/city that is unnocupied can the player use a meeple from their hand to complete and score that feature in that turn - as they could with placement of a road or city tile? (?? No. Because that would require the meeple to be placed on the Abbey tile (the "just placed" tile) and Abbey tiles can only contain monks because there is no road/city segment on the Abbey tile on which to place the meeple. ??) 4. Can the wagon move to an incomplete, empty, Abbey tile when the road/city it is on is completed? That is: is the road/city "adjacent" to the Abbey even though the Abbey tile has no city/road segment? 5. Can the wagon "support" a builder like any other follower? (There may be an answer to this on the forum, but I can't find it and the rules don't really say yes or no. Special Wagon properties again)) Another thought: Seems to me that each expansion adds more amd more complexity to these rules. Your valiant efforts at consolidation and clarification are considerable help and sooner or later your version "X" of the rules will become the classic, but much of this could be avoided if HiG (not to mention RGG) did more adequate testing of expansions and revisions before publication. What they need is a group of dedicated experienced players who enjoy trying out new things and are expert at finding conflicts and issues in game play . . . . Oh! (surprise!!) I have just described the members of this forum. Is there a chance that HiG at least might consider using (some of) the members here as "beta testers". I bet we would find out 99% of the issues within a few games and save them a fortune in later correction and adaptation . . . it would pay them to do it and make for better games. Software developers do it all the time. We might get (with legal limitations etc) early copies of the expansions for our efforts . . . Just an idea to consider when writing to HiG. D Title: Re: Questions for HiG—deadline 25 January Post by: dwhitworth on January 22, 2008, 01:59:19 pm I made the mistake of asking some other players for contributions to this list . . . . so here are three more:
When playing Abbeys&Mayors and the Count: 1. Does the placement of a barn, that causes another player's farm to be scored without immediate score to the placing player, count as an opportunity to move a meeple to the City of Carcassonne? While there is no immediate score to the placing player, the barn is certain to score at the end of the game. 2. Does the placing of a barn, and the subsequent scoring of the farm, count as an opportunity to REMOVE a meeple from the City of Carcassonne? The rules currently say that a meeple may only be removed to a farm "at the end of the game", but that was created before A&M and the barn. Also: 3. If a player completes a city that contains resources, but scores no points for the city, does the acquisition of resources count as (potential) scoring and forbid the player moving a meeple to the City of Carcassonne? If the reply is that you can move the meeple because the scoring is only potential, then what about a play that acquires the resources that secure a monopoly and therefore make later scoring certain? D Title: Re: Questions for HiG—deadline 25 January Post by: mjharper on January 22, 2008, 03:39:57 pm I made the mistake of asking some other players for contributions to this list . . . . so here are three more: No, that's cool—keep 'em comin'{nw Title: Re: Questions for HiG—deadline 25 January Post by: Scott on January 23, 2008, 09:43:52 am I took a quick look through this forum and came up with the following:
I thought there was more than that though. Title: Re: Questions for HiG—deadline 25 January Post by: Scott on January 24, 2008, 09:05:05 pm I did a search on my own posts and found two threads that may contain some unanswered questions, but I'm not sure if I'll have time to go through them before the deadline.
A lot of back and forth discussion about the River II: http://www.carcassonnecentral.com/index.php?option=com_smf&Itemid=26&topic=77.0 (http://www.carcassonnecentral.com/index.php?option=com_smf&Itemid=26&topic=77.0) I remember that some questions got resolved, but there might be a few that weren't. Some issues with the unreleased Heretic expansion: http://www.carcassonnecentral.com/index.php?option=com_smf&Itemid=26&topic=203.0 (http://www.carcassonnecentral.com/index.php?option=com_smf&Itemid=26&topic=203.0) The problems have to do with the situation where both a cloister and cult place are completed at the same time. Firstly, who scores? Secondly, is there a Count opportunity? Title: Re: Questions for HiG—deadline 25 January Post by: mjharper on January 25, 2008, 03:10:47 pm Another question about heretics:
Can a knight in a besieged city from the Cathars escape via a shrine, or only via a cloister? Title: Re: Questions for HiG—deadline 25 January Post by: mjharper on January 25, 2008, 06:39:54 pm Couple of other things for the new expansion:
1) The rules say that you may not place a shrine in such a way that it neighbours several cloisters, and vice versa. But can I place a shire in such a way that it makes a cloister neighbour several shrines? (Imagining this scenario: 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 There's a cloister on 5 and a shrine on 6. I place a shrine on 4. There's only one cloister on a neighbouring tile, but now I've forced the cloister into an 'illegal' placement. To be honest, I totally expect the answer 'no' to this one—but I can also imagine it being exactly the scenario awkward players come up with, so we'd better ask…) 2) Can I parachute followers into a shrine from Carcassonne? 3) How does parachuting affect the challenge? For example, if I place the last tile of a previously empty cloister, can I parachute a monk in, claim a challenge to a neighbouring shrine, and immediately declare victory? (This one is going to need some formulation, because it relates to 2) above, and to Scott's question. If the answer to 2) is 'no' then that gives an unfair advantage to cloisters—doubly unfair because there are more of them. And if the answer to Scott's question is what I imagine it will be—that the player placing that tile claims victory—then does parachuting still allow the placing player to claim victory? Or does the fact that the other feature was occupied at the precise moment of tile placement grant them victory, regardless of whether a follower parachuted in for an instant challenge. If you see what I mean…) Title: Re: Questions for HiG—deadline 25 January Post by: mjharper on January 25, 2008, 07:02:45 pm And yet more:
1) If the fairy is on the same tile as the losing heretic or monk in a challenge, does the player still score the bonus 3 points? (What if the loser's building is incomplete—and what if, as in Scott's question, the last time completes both?) 2) Say I have a heretic engaged in a challenge with a monk, and I place the tile which completes the monk's cloister, so that the monk scores 9 points and I score 0. Can I still move a follower to CC in this case? I really must sleep… {zb Title: Re: Questions for HiG—deadline 25 January Post by: mjharper on January 25, 2008, 07:15:51 pm I can't take much more of this…
1) Can a shrine challenge an abbey, and vice versa? (Anyone know where the 'off' switch is for the brain?) Title: Re: Questions for HiG—deadline 25 January Post by: mjharper on January 26, 2008, 03:42:51 am So, it occurs to me that some of the questions I posted last night would also apply to the magic portal… must remember that.
And: 1) If you combine Count, King and Consorts with The River II, you will now have two forks. Obviously one of those gets placed immediately, but should the other one be mixed in with the rest of the river tiles, or put to one side? Title: Re: Questions for HiG—deadline 25 January Post by: mjharper on January 26, 2008, 05:05:13 am 5. Can the wagon "support" a builder like any other follower? (There may be an answer to this on the forum, but I can't find it and the rules don't really say yes or no. Special Wagon properties again)) I don't get this one… clarification, please! Edit: Oh, I get it. Can a builder be dependant on a wagon… Title: Re: Questions for HiG—deadline 25 January Post by: mjharper on January 26, 2008, 05:11:42 am If your city is besieged with a tile from the Cathars expansion, and there is an Abbey or Cloister adjoining, can the mayor or wagon escape? That one's already been answered: the answer is Yes (http://www.carcassonnecentral.com/index.php?option=com_smf&Itemid=26&topic=191.0)Title: Re: Questions for HiG—deadline 25 January Post by: mjharper on January 26, 2008, 05:34:49 am And here's another I just though of:
When a challenge is resolved, both the monk and heretic are removed from play. What if that leaves one of the buildings incomplete? Can I reoccupy it using a magic portal or a follower from the City of Carcassonne? (been compiling the list—29 questions. They're gonna love us!) <35 Title: Re: Questions for HiG—deadline 25 January Post by: Scott on January 26, 2008, 12:34:15 pm If your city is besieged with a tile from the Cathars expansion, and there is an Abbey or Cloister adjoining, can the mayor or wagon escape? That one's already been answered: the answer is Yes (http://www.carcassonnecentral.com/index.php?option=com_smf&Itemid=26&topic=191.0)I looked through the thread you linked, but I don't see it. All I could see was that abbeys and cloisters can both be used for escape, but nothing about whether the Mayor or Wagon are allowed to escape. I don't think Count, King, and Consorts is intended to be used together with the individual mini-expansions that it consists of. That is to say, if you are using the new sixth expansion, you're supposed to leave your old King, Count, and River II tiles in their boxes. Combining more than one set of the same tiles is sort of beyond the scope of the official rules. Although it's past the deadline, I linked to the River II thread before the deadline, so technically any questions in it are fair for inclusion in the e-mail to HiG. Now that I have time to go through it, here's what I can find:
Title: Re: Questions for HiG—deadline 25 January Post by: dwhitworth on January 26, 2008, 06:29:17 pm A couple more thoughts on the new expansion and other rules. (Thanks Matt for a great timely overview)
1. Do the rules that restrict the placement of cloisters next to already placed shrines also restrict the placement of Abbeys? 2. For those who want to play-test the one new feature of the 6th, then if you have K&S and do not have a use for the five H&G tiles, use them upside down to simulate shrines for testing. Suitable graphic alterations to show road and city segments can be made. This way you can decide whether it is worth the price to get the new expansion and decent looking tiles. D Title: Re: Questions for HiG—deadline 25 January Post by: Scott on January 27, 2008, 09:24:19 am Found this in the Annotated Rules thread:
Title: Re: Questions for HiG—deadline 25 January Post by: mjharper on January 27, 2008, 11:50:50 am Okay, the good news first: I sent off an email today with 32 questions. Thanks to Alina for the translations!
The bad news: I immediately got an email back from Georg Wild at HiG saying that he'll be out of the office until 14 Feb… So I guess that means we still have time to fill in any gaps. Here's the list. In some cases I edited them for clarity. Quote from: Matt wrote to HiG 1) With the new three-way tile, is the length of the road the longest distance between two ends, or the total number of tiles in the road? (For example, when deciding who gets the Robber Baron.) Thanks to everyone! If I missed anything, let me know.2) If I have an Abbey left and I pick the very last tile up and play it to an feature where I have a Builder, then is the game over because the last tile (apart from Abbeys) has been played? Or am I allowed to play my Abbey on my extra turn from the Builder? 3) If the player on my right plays the last tile has the game finished? Or, if I have an Abbey left, can I say, "No I want my turn. I choose not to take a tile, but to play my Abbey"? 4) What is the definition of "connected" for the Wagon? If two city walls are touching (maybe even only at a point), can I drive my Wagon from one to another? 5) Can you deploy a wagon to a city, score it, and then move the wagon to another feature, all in one turn? Or can you only move the wagon instead of deploying a normal follower? 6) Blue has a mayor in a city with no pennants. Does the city count as occupied? And if so, when the city is scored, will blue score points? 7) If a player completes a feature with an Abbey tile and their builder is on the feature, does the feature get 'extended" by the Abbey, and if so does the player get another tile? 8 ) If cities with trade goods are completed by placement of an Abbey tile, are the goods tokens awarded as usual to the player placing the Abbey tile? 9) If an Abbey tile completes a road/city that is unoccupied can the player use a follower from their hand to complete and score that feature in that turn - as they could with placement of a road or city tile? 10) Can the wagon move to an incomplete, empty, Abbey when the road/city it is on is completed? That is: is the road/city "adjacent" to the Abbey even though the Abbey tile has no city/road segment? 11) Can the wagon "support" a builder like any other follower? (Can I place a builder in a city in which the only other follower is a wagon?) 12) If I place a barn on a farm on which another player has farmers, causing him/her to score while I score nothing, can I move a follower to the City of Carcassonne? (While there is no immediate score to me now, the barn is certain to score at the end of the game). 13) Does the placing of a barn, and the subsequent scoring of the farm, count as an opportunity to REMOVE a meeple from the City of Carcassonne? The rules currently say that a meeple may only be removed to a farm "at the end of the game", but that was created before A&M and the barn. 14) If a player completes a city that contains resources, but scores no points for the city, does the acquisition of resources count as (potential) scoring and forbid the player moving a meeple to the City of Carcassonne? What if the resources acquired secure a monopoly and therefore make later scoring certain? 15) Can I place a follower on a tower foundation to prevent a tower being built? 16) If your city is besieged with a tile from the Cathars expansion, and there is an Abbey or Cloister adjoining, can the mayor or wagon escape? 17) If you have one knight in a besieged city, and another knight in another besieged city, and both besieged cities are adjacent to cloisters, can both knights escape at the end of your turn, or can you only choose to evacuate one per turn? 18) Can a knight in a besieged city from the Cathars escape via a shrine, or only via a cloister? 19) The rules say that you may not place a shrine in such a way that it neighbours several cloisters, and vice versa. But can I place a shrine in such a way that it forces a cloister neighbour several shrines? What effect does that have? 20) If the fairy is on the same tile as the losing heretic or monk in a challenge, does the player still score the bonus 3 points? 21) Can a shrine challenge an abbey, and vice versa? 22) Do the rules that restrict the placement of cloisters next to already placed shrines also restrict the placement of Abbeys? 23) If you combine Count, King and Consorts with The River II, you will now have two forks. Obviously one of those gets placed immediately, but should the other one be mixed in with the rest of the river tiles, or put to one side? 24) What if the tile placed completes both the shrine and the cloister—who scores? 25) Does it ever make a difference if I have a big meeple in a cloister or the shrine? 26) Can I move followers from the City of Carcassonne (from the cathedral?) into a shrine during scoring? 27) Imagine I have an unoccupied cloister next to an occupied shrine. I place a tile with a magic portal which completes both buildings, and choose to use the magic portal to deploy a monk to the cloister. Does this declare a challenge, if so, and who wins? 28) Similar question: Imagine I have an unoccupied cloister next to an occupied shrine. I place a tile which completes both buildings, and choose to move a follower into the cloister from the City of Carcassonne. Does this declare a challenge, and if so, who wins? 29) Say I have a heretic engaged in a challenge with a monk, and I place the tile which completes the monk's cloister, so that the monk scores 9 points and I score 0. Can I still move a follower to CC in this case? 30) When a challenge is resolved, both the monk and heretic are removed from play. What if that leaves one of the buildings incomplete? Can I reoccupy it using a magic portal or a follower from the City of Carcassonne? 31) In the new rules for The River II, it says ‘Der Fluss wird zu Beginn der Partie ausgelegt.’ Does the word ‘Partie’ have any special meaning? I haven’t seen it in the rules before… 32) Can a shorter tower capture the follower from a taller tower, or does the tower need to be equal or greater in height? Title: Re: Questions for HiG—deadline 25 January Post by: mjharper on January 27, 2008, 11:59:43 am If your city is besieged with a tile from the Cathars expansion, and there is an Abbey or Cloister adjoining, can the mayor or wagon escape? That one's already been answered: the answer is Yes (http://www.carcassonnecentral.com/index.php?option=com_smf&Itemid=26&topic=191.0)I looked through the thread you linked, but I don't see it. All I could see was that abbeys and cloisters can both be used for escape, but nothing about whether the Mayor or Wagon are allowed to escape. I don't think Count, King, and Consorts is intended to be used together with the individual mini-expansions that it consists of. That is to say, if you are using the new sixth expansion, you're supposed to leave your old King, Count, and River II tiles in their boxes. Combining more than one set of the same tiles is sort of beyond the scope of the official rules. I didn't ask about this directly, since AFAIK, HiG have no rules concerning multiple expansions at all. It is implied in 23), so if they have a problem, they'll probably say…Although it's past the deadline, I linked to the River II thread before the deadline, so technically any questions in it are fair for inclusion in the e-mail to HiG. Now that I have time to go through it, here's what I can find: First point: If you aren't using the volcano as a volcano, it won't give a double turn. It only gives a double turn because the dragon has to be placed. I didn't ask because I thought that this was straightforward enough…
Second point: I take that your conclusion is correct. The rules say that the spring, the fork and the volcano/lake should be left to one side, and the others mixed up. I just thought that, 32 questions in, this one seemed clear… Title: Re: Questions for HiG—deadline 25 January Post by: Scott on January 27, 2008, 06:32:28 pm First point: If you aren't using the volcano as a volcano, it won't give a double turn. It only gives a double turn because the dragon has to be placed. I didn't ask because I thought that this was straightforward enough… Second point: I take that your conclusion is correct. The rules say that the spring, the fork and the volcano/lake should be left to one side, and the others mixed up. I just thought that, 32 questions in, this one seemed clear… I am also satisfied that we have reached the correct conclusions, but I got the impression that other people wanted official confirmation. I'll check the latest Annotated Rules and see if any more footnotes are needed. Title: Re: Questions for HiG—deadline 25 January Post by: mjharper on January 28, 2008, 07:43:20 am **Breaking News**
I just got a reply from Georg Wild at HiG, with answers to all the questions! Awesome. I'll go through them as soon as I've finished preparing exams for my students. Also, on a completely unexpected note, Georg asked if he could refer to my collection of FAQs when rebuilding the official site, since it's probably the most comprehensive there is. :o Wow. Lost for words I am. Time to tidy up the FAQ section… Title: Re: Questions for HiG—deadline 25 January Post by: mjharper on January 28, 2008, 10:03:55 am So the answers are up. I thought it better to start a new thread (http://www.carcassonnecentral.com/index.php?option=com_smf&Itemid=26&topic=230.0).
Title: Re: Questions for HiG—deadline 25 January Post by: Tobias on January 28, 2008, 05:30:05 pm Also, on a completely unexpected note, Georg asked if he could refer to my collection of FAQs when rebuilding the official site, since it's probably the most comprehensive there is. :o Wow. Lost for words I am. Time to tidy up the FAQ section… That's really nice! About time to get some recognition :) |