Carcassonne Central

NOTE FOR THREAD ARCHEOLOGISTS:
The most recent version of this application can be found somewhere towards the end of this thread.

ORIGINAL POST BEGINS HERE:

I forgot I was making this. :-[

Spent some more time today working on it:
(http://img508.imageshack.us/img508/8666/carcscore.png)

All the scoring buttons work, but only for regular "during the game" type scoring. I need to add a mechanism to switch to "end game" scoring.
The longest road and largest city are tracked, but I still need to add something to the interface to show who currently holds each one.
But before I add any more to the interface, I need to improve things "under the hood" so that I can add the other 5 players (and possibly more?).

Been working on this most of the day now, and progress has been good:
(http://img16.imageshack.us/img16/8666/carcscore.png)

The King and Robber Baron are now visible, and they're awarded automatically as the game progresses. The application is also keeping track of the number of completed features in the background for those who play by the book (1 point per completed feature).

On the right we have a game status indicator which toggles between "Game in Progress" and "End of Game" when you click the button. The legend also changes to show what the current point values are.

Also on the right is a reset button, which has a confirmation prompt to prevent terrible accidents in the middle of a legitimate game.

Naturally, everything we make here gets the CarcCentral stamp of awesomeness with the web address to lead people here.

The application actually lives inside an Excel spreadsheet:
(http://img199.imageshack.us/img199/8854/carcscorespreadsheet.png)

The button in the top-right corner is how you get into the interface. As the interface updates, it keeps the spreadsheet synchronized. When the game is over, you can copy-paste the raw data to somewhere else for posterity.

This is looking great!  {up  I can't wait to give it a whirl.

Woke up early this morning and just had to finish this off. Added all the legal cruft and locked everything down.

Also fiddled with the Road, City, Cloister, and Farm scoring windows, which you guys never saw yet. I wanted to make the text size larger to match the main window, and I added spinner controls for people who prefer to use the mouse instead of the keyboard.

Download v1.0 here: http://www.mediafire.com/?y3y4qtz8euzfnda (http://www.mediafire.com/?y3y4qtz8euzfnda)

This look awesome!  I've been waiting for one of these for a long time!  Too bad I can only give you one merit point at a time!  Haven't been able to open the interface, but I assume that will be fixed soon.  Can't wait to take it for a ride!

Are you going to add the Castle scoring?

The only reason I can think of for the button not working is that you do not have macros enabled, or your macro security is set too high.
http://office.microsoft.com/en-us/excel-help/change-macro-security-settings-in-excel-HP010096919.aspx (http://office.microsoft.com/en-us/excel-help/change-macro-security-settings-in-excel-HP010096919.aspx)

By the way, anybody who's still using Excel 2003 will need the Compatibility Pack to open the spreadsheet:
http://www.microsoft.com/download/en/details.aspx?id=3 (http://www.microsoft.com/download/en/details.aspx?id=3)

I looked briefly at the castle, and it didn't seem like I needed to add anything because the castle owner is scoring features near the castle, so if a city is completed adjacent to your castle, the city owner and the castle owner both score as if they shared the city. Unless I'm misunderstanding?

I guess that's true to a degree.  You score for any feature, so it could be a cloister too.  Also, there is a 1 point bonus for farmers.

Cudos on this Scott! This is awesome!

When I try to open the interface, it's coming up read only.

Each score box has a spinner control for incrementing and decrementing each value, and each box is also directly editable, so any conceivable scoring method can be accomodated. The four buttons (road/city/cloister/farm) are really just handy shortcuts.


Hmm... I'll need you to upload an image of your screen at the point where you run stuck to be able to diagnose this further.

Just tested this on my work computer which has Excel 2003 with the 2007 Compatibility Pack and it's working here too.

Since Chris can only give one merit at a time, I've added one from me as well.  Excellent work Scott!   8)

I have uploaded a new version 1.0.1:
http://www.mediafire.com/?y3y4qtz8euzfnda (http://www.mediafire.com/?y3y4qtz8euzfnda)

I improved error handling on the numeric fields to prevent crashing. The error only crashes the interface, not Excel itself, so the data was never being lost.

I also added some support for non-standard meeple colors. These colors are not added to the spinner controls, but if you change the text in the spreadsheet while the interface is not running you can use them. The added colors are Orange, Brown, Purple, Pink, and White. I wasn't sure if I should make these available in the spinner controls because they are not official, but I'm interested to hear what you guys think. The way I have implemented it, it's not possible to add the camos meeples, or ninjas or pirates. The image consists of the white space around the meeple, and the actual meeple part is transparent. A background color is applied behind the transparent image to make the meeple appear.

I don't want to add all kinds of support for fan-made expansions (or fanspansions as they affectionately known by some), because there would be no end to it. For the most part, it is possible to keep score by calculating the points in your head and adding them using the spinner controls or by typing over the numbers. However, I suspect there may be some value in providing support for labourer and mendicant (a fan-made expansion to King and Robber Baron). Is anybody interested in this? Would I be setting a dangerous precendent?

EDIT: I just reviewed the rules for Laborer and Mendicant (AKA Friar and Farmhand), and it would be difficult to award them automatically. The friar is awarded to the person who completes the cloister, but not necessarily the person who scores for it. To include the friar I would have to change the mechanics of it so that it goes to the person who scores the most cloisters. The farmhand/laborer is also difficult because Excel doesn't know how many farmers are in play, only how many farms are completed, and farms aren't completed until the end of the game. Likewise, I would need to change how it is awarded; probably to the person who completes the "biggest" farm (that is, the farm which supports the most cities). I'm not sure how people would feel about these changes, but I think it's more consistent with how the king and robber baron work.

---

Regarding the issue that CKorfmann is experiencing, he sent me an e-mail with screenshots and I have responded to him via e-mail. However, in case others encounter this, I think it may be beneficial to explain a bit here. This issue appears to be with people who are using Excel 2003 with the 2007 Compatibility Pack and the way in which they open the file. When you are downloading from MediaFire, you need to save the file to your computer first and open it as a second step. If you choose to open it from the download dialog, you will get a funny message about updating links followed by a message saying that the file has been locked for editing by 'another user'. From what I've been able to determine on Google, this is a glitch in the conversion process when the file is saved to your temporary files folder (which is what happens when you pick Run instead of Save in the download dialog).

If saving the file to your computer and then opening it still doesn't work, you can try to reinstall the Compatibility Pack, though this is not guaranteed to make a difference. As I mentioned in my previous post, I was successful in getting the file to open in Excel 2003 with the 2007 Compatibility Pack on my work computer. In that case, I saved the file to my desktop before opening it, so hopefully everyone else is successful too. ;)

That’s great!  Way to go the extra mile.  Would it be difficult to add Gold and Nude (maybe tan)?  Not that you haven’t done enough already…  As for putting the extra colors on the spinners, that would just add an extra layer of sweetness for me, but I could live with them just being available to be added manually.  What if you used Lindquist’s images?  :o

Yes, I could see this getting out of hand, but I could also see it as a way to encourage people to play with that expansion.  I would agree that Labourer and Mendicant is probably the most likely candidate for inclusion, though a line should probably be drawn there (not that I'm anxious to squash your creative mojo!).  Perhaps two different versions, one with fan and aftermarket additions in the second? = more work.  However, I would not be in favor of changing the rules.  I guess the only alternative would be to add another button that tallies cloister completions and farmers in play… = even more work.

Your suggestion worked perfectly for me and I suspect it will for others too.  I thought this might be the case, I just failed to try it before I whined about it.  ::)

I found one potential error.  I added a city to in-game scoring and toggled to end-game scoring and added another that was much larger.  Though it got the score correct, the program awarded the King token to that player with the larger, unfinished city (and it did the same for roads).  This leads me to believe that it doesn’t understand the difference in complete verses incomplete features even though it gets the score right.  How then does it score for the King, or is that a manual application?

I realized my error after I thought I had found another mistake.  When scoring for a farm, the last box includes the besieged city bonus.  My first impression was to input the number of besieged cities.  When I selected one (thinking it would double the points for one city) it only added one point.  It should probably be worded differently to make that clear or maybe fixed to calculate it by the number of besieged cities = more work again.

Kudos to you Scott!  You are definitely the man for this job!

BTW, with all those functions you've written, aren't you like half way to making a video game?  ;D

Oh, and this is going sticky!

I'm not familiar with Lindquist's images, can you point me in the right direction? Gold might be tricky, but nude could be added by finding a suitable tan color. I wasn't sure if people actually play with the nude meeples as is or if they are painting them.

Creating another edition of the Score Keeper would increase the amount of work for me to maintain them. Regarding Labourer and Mendicant, I'm not sure I want to go to the trouble of adding more information to manually keep track of.

Glad that your problem has been resolved. If that didn't work, I wouldn't know what else to try.

I'll take a look at the King and Robber Baron code later today. It sounds like I forgot to add a check for whether the game status = in progress vs. end of game, which is an easy fix.
No points are automatically added to any player's score, but the "official" point value is shown in the legend at right. You can either add that amount to the person's total or add some other amount based on your house rules.

For some reason I thought that the number of besieged cities was not enough information to properly calculate the points, but now that I'm thinking about it (though it is early in the morning, so maybe this isn't the best time to be thinking) the besieged bonus could be calculated as number of besieged cities x 3?

I’m not sure I got his name right and I can’t find the photo, but they are the 3D images that Joff uses in his rules documents.  Maybe someone knows where to find them?

It should include the pig and pig heard where applicable, right?  It would probably be easy to add farm scoring for Castles to the box too since it’s just 4 points as opposed to 3 for cities plus pig(s) bonuses as well.

Yes, I guess people will want the pig and pig-herd bonuses too. ;)

I just discovered another problem with the King and Robber Baron. I've been awarding it to the player who scores, but according to the rules it goes to the player who completes. There's two possible solutions here:

1. The easiest solution is to prompt for who completed the city/road when the application detects that a larger one has been completed.

2. Slightly more work, but possibly nicer, would be to change the feature scoring windows so that you can select from a dropdown menu the player who completed the feature, and also select using checkboxes which player(s) should score points. This would simplify the scoring of shared features. It could also mean moving the four buttons out of each player's box and having a single set of buttons, which could be a challenge layout-wise.

I believe his username on Deviart is Tranberry. Try googling tranberry devianart, you should be able to find the meeple images

Of course.  HERE (http://tranberry.deviantart.com/gallery/1096433#/d14lb1y) is the link though I've never seen it with the Carcassonne background.  I believe we have permission to you them, but I think Joff could confirm that.

I have uploaded v1.0.2:
http://www.mediafire.com/?y3y4qtz8euzfnda (http://www.mediafire.com/?y3y4qtz8euzfnda)

• Fixed end-game scoring for roads, cities, and cloisters. They no longer count towards the number of completed features or towards the awarding of the King or Robber Baron tiles.
• Fixed logic for awarding of King and Robber Baron. The City and Road scoring windows now have a dropdown menu to select who completed the feature, which defaults to the player who is scoring.
• Took the easy way out regarding farm scoring for castles by changing the label on the Barn checkbox to say "Barn or Castle?".
• Added Gold meeple color. You need to type the word in manually on the spreadsheet to use this color, same as the other non-standard colors.

I actually ran into difficulty trying to add the Nude meeple color, so I'm not sure when/if I'll be able to add this. I've been thinking about whether to add the non-standard colors to the spinners, and I keep coming back to the same thought that I don't want to get e-mail from people asking where to buy the other colors. The eventual plan is to have this available on BoardGameGeek too, and some people may not be aware of MeepleSource. I also think about this with regards to Friar and Farmhand, and any other fan-made expansion. I don't want e-mail asking where to buy/get these non-official expansions. I also don't want to subject our friendly local game store owners to questions from uninformed Carcassonne shoppers asking for fan-made expansions thinking they are official.

I downloaded the images from Deviantart, but I'm not sure how useful they'll be because he's only made images for the official meeple colors (problem #1), and changing the method I'm currently using would be more effort than it's worth (I like having just one meeple image).

I hope I'm not rubbing anybody the wrong way with the decisions I'm making. None of them are set in stone for all eternity; I'm willing to listen to reason, though I'm not easy to convince. ;D

OK, I have to ask though, what if you have both on your farm?

I'm offended that you don't rush to bend to my every whim!  :'(  Not really.

EDIT: After a quick look, I clicked the drop-down for selecting who completed the road/city and there are spaces available, but they are all blank.

If the farm has both, you could score it twice?

The spaces are blank when no names have been typed in.

I don't think that will work.  You'd have to play around with the numbers because you wouldn't be able to input the cities again.

Of course, for some reason I was expecting it to show the player color instead of name.  Names make much more sense. 

I'll have to review the rules for BC&B and figure something out. Expansions that I haven't played with yet are challenging for me to wrap my head around.

Should I fall back to the color if the name is not filled in?

That would probably save you an email or seven.

For the time being, here is version 1.0.3:
http://www.mediafire.com/?y3y4qtz8euzfnda (http://www.mediafire.com/?y3y4qtz8euzfnda)

I've added the fallback to the color names. I also loaded up the CAR and went through the rules for the Castle with a fine-tooth comb. I misunderstood how castles are scored in relation to farms; I thought the castle owner was scoring for farm completion, but it's the farmer who is scoring the castle. I renamed the Barn checkbox back the way it was and added a "Number of Castles" text box.

I need more time to figure out a solution to the actual scoring of castles. It's not good to use the city/road/cloister scoring buttons because they increment the city/road/cloister counters. I think I need to add a Castle button. Until then, please add your castle points manually.

Sounds great.  I think this will work best.  I'm not 100% sure, but it is my assumption that farm scoring for castles inclues the +1 for the pig and pig herd as well.  Can anyone back that up?

Checking the CAR, I see that castles do indeed receive +1 bonuses. Apparently barns also give a +1 bonus to castles. That means my math is still wrong. :(

Here's version 1.0.4:
http://www.mediafire.com/?y3y4qtz8euzfnda (http://www.mediafire.com/?y3y4qtz8euzfnda)

I think the letter of the rules state "Cities" for pig and pig herd? Of course, castles did not exist when those were written but I would still tend to failsafe to the rules until officially clarified.

You'll want to jump ahead to pages 79 thru 81 (CAR v5.0b9) to read the rules regarding castles. The passage in question is at the top of page 81:


There's actually no explicit mention of the pig-herd, but I think it's reasonable to assume that the pig-herd should give an additional +1 on top of the pig for a total of 6 points.

I agree.  I think it is reasonable as well.

Yes, I see. The Pig was considered in the BC&B rules. That clears it up nicely.

And I would agree that it's reasonable then to extend it to the pig herd as well for a +1.

I want to say that I've been giving the castle situation some thought, but truthfully I haven't. However, as these things often go, I just got an idea.

Originally I thought that I would have to build a separate castle scoring window that would consist of all the other windows combined and be really confusing. Today it occurred to me that castle scoring is actually only one of two very similar problems. The other problem is scoring a shared feature, where two players have an equal number of meeples. In this situation, we also don't want to increment the number of completed whatever by more than one.

So here's the new idea, which I hope to implement today but may not have ready until this evening because I have to go to a BBQ this afternoon. I intend to add a pair of radio buttons (the round ones where can only pick one at a time) to each of the existing scoring screens where you can specify that this feature is being scored for the first time or being scored again for a different player. If you select the "scoring again" option, the number of whatever will not be incremented and the largest city or longest road will not be recalculated. I think this will be very easy to implement, and it's a small change so I don't have to increase the version number to 1.1 yet. ;D

Question for the group: is there any interest/need for a score keeping application for any of the Carc spin-offs?

Uploaded version 1.0.5:
http://www.mediafire.com/?51fxhxot1qk79cs (http://www.mediafire.com/?51fxhxot1qk79cs)

Each of the scoring windows now has a pair of radio buttons that look like this:
(http://img854.imageshack.us/img854/6510/scoringz.png)

The first option is the default, and it will increment the number of completed features and recalculate who gets the King/Robber Baron.

When you have a feature that is being scored by multiple players, use the first option for the first player and switch to the second option for each additional player. The second option prevents incrementing the number of completed features and does not recalculate the King/Robber Baron. This will prevent the final winner of the King and Robber Baron from getting too many additional points.

Scott, I love this tool. I could see us setting up a lap top at the end of the table - or how about having it projected on your wall - or on the ceiling! -  for all to see easily. Lots of options here.

Something came to mind as I'm running through all the various scoring options in my mind. At game end the owners of the King and Robber Baron tiles receive points for each completed respective feature. There will be completed features that never got scored (as is the case with many roads and some cities). I believe your attempt at counting the city and road features through the course of the game is unnecessary. You will arrive at an incomplete number and won't know on the board what has been counted and what has not. You will have to physically count all the features at end game to arrive at a total. Sorry if that causes a hiccup for you - hopefully it simplifies something else for you though.

Also, as I'm looking at the interface I realized it would be handy to know what tile count would be needed to win the King or Robber Baron - just like you know what you need for barrels, ribbons, etc. Would it be possible to have a tile count indicator (perhaps overlaid on the king and robber tile, or somewhere adjacent to it) so that any player can know at a glance what tile count won that tile and what is required to steal it?

Great job so far!  :sa
(by the way, I could not see Green when I toggled through the color options for each player in the interface. Not sure if I was doing something wrong. Also, could not see any of the non-standard colors.)

Perfect!

Hmm... it didn't occur to me about completed cities and roads that aren't scored. I think I will still have it count the number of completed features per player for those who are interested in such statistics, but I'll have to change the scoring legend to not sum them up at the end.

I like the idea of showing the tile count for the King and Robber Baron, and I think it should not be hard to do either.

Green is definitely in there; maybe it looks black on your screen? The non-standard colors are not in rotation, but you can type the names of the colors into the spreadsheet while the interface is not running and then when you start the interface the color will display.

Scott - you were right, of course, Green shows up very dark - I confused it with Black. Funny because when I first discovered Green missing I wondered why there were two Blacks. And Orange worked perfectly following your instructions.
Thanks!

What is the list of non-standard colors that will work?

The supported non-standard colors are Orange, Brown, Purple, Pink, White, and Gold.

Uploaded version 1.0.6
http://www.mediafire.com/?7swvjsp7p18hpmk (http://www.mediafire.com/?7swvjsp7p18hpmk)

Removed the final scoring calculations for King and Robber Baron, and added the "size to beat" indicators. In the top-right corner of the image is displayed the size of the current largest city or longest road; you need to complete a city or road larger than the number shown to get the tile.

Enjoy! This would definitely work excellent with an LCD projector shining on the wall. ;D

Version 1.0.7
http://www.mediafire.com/view/?7jmqyeda7yyku74 (http://www.mediafire.com/view/?7jmqyeda7yyku74)

I got an e-mail from somebody who wanted simplified feature scoring when multiple players are involved, as well as some statistics based on previous sessions. I ran into a few limitations on the statistics, but I'm pretty happy with these improvements.