Carcassonne Central

I was surprised to find so many ideas and efforts made by fans to create expansions. I would like your opinions / suggestions regarding an idea of my own concerning the Tower expansion.

You can build the tower, but can't break it down after that during the game. (well maybe you can, but i certainly wouldn’t know about it..)  So I came up with this Tower demolish-feature. Before starting creating tiles i wanted to post the idea to have the expansion perfected for the game - as i have seen in multiple threads, many rules and tiles developed in discussion and new ideas.

So, here's what i thought so far for the

Trebuchet Carcassonne fan expansion

To be played with The Tower expansion. The rules of the tower stay unchanged.

With the Trebuchet expansion the players earn points by taking down towerparts or destroy complete towers by playing trebuchet tiles. The tiles can be played in a tactic way to defend meeples that are being threatened by towers.

There are 12 Trebuchet tiles.
c.o.
3ea a single trebuchet (a)
3ea line up of 2 trebuchets (b)
3ea line up of 3 trebuchets (c)
3ea line up of 4 trebuchets (d)

The tiles come with roads, citycaps and farms and can therefore be played as landscape tiles when a player chooses to do so. Special powers apply throughout the game however (rule 6). When the tower expansion is not used the tiles can be used as normal landscape cards earning you special points (rule 5).

How to use Trebuchet tiles
The single trebuchet tile (a) can be used to completely demolish a tower consisting of 1 part. (9 points), or take down 1 part of a higher tower (1 point).
Note: When there are no towers built yet, the tile in this case should be played as a landscape tile (see rule 6).

The double trebuchet tile (b) can only be used to completely demolish a tower consisting of 2 parts (9 points), or take down 2 parts of a tower of 3 parts or higher. (1 point per part)
Note: This tile can not be used to tower down a single part tower. The tile in this case should be played as a landscape tile (rule 6) when no demolishion is possible.

The triple trebuchet tile (c) can only be used to completely demolish a tower consisting of 3 parts (9 points), or take down 3 parts of a tower of 4 parts or higher. (1 point per part)
Note: This tile can not be used to tower down a single part or double part tower. The tile in this case should be played as a landscape tile (rule 6) when no demolishion is possible.

The trebuchet tiles containing four trebuchets (d) can only be used to completely demolish a tower consisting of 4 parts (9 points), or take down 4 parts of a tower of 5 parts or higher. (1 point per part).
Note: This tile can not be used to tower down a single, double or triple part tower. The tile in this case should be played as a landscape tile (rule 6) when no demolishion is possible.


Note: Once a tower is destroyed and the parts are removed from the tower tile, the trebuchet tile becomes a landscape tile with its special power still (rule 6).


Rules:

1) Tower parts can be taken down only when no meeple is on top. Once the tower is fixed, the trebuchet tile will not effect the tower.

2) Each one tower part taken down is good for 1 point. The tower part taken by the player playing the trebuchet tile receives the taken tower part(s) in his stock to use again.

3) To (partly) demolish a tower, the trebuchet tiles can only be placed anywhere in the towers’ range effected by the towers hight. (ref. tower rules). Once the tower range is fixed during the game by tiles surrounding the area, the tower cannot be demolished anymore.

4) The player who completely demolishes a tower, receives 9 points. Even if the tower height is consistent of just 1 tower part. When a tower is destroyed, a new tower can be built on the same spot. But mind rule number 6; the new towers’ height can be restricted.

5) When the trebuchet tile is played as a landscape card, a meeple can be place on the trebuchets on the tile, representing 1 to 4 extra (!) points when a normal road or city is completed lining up with the tile. Extra (!) double points (2-8) rules apply when there is an inn at a lake. So when a road is finished, the trebuchet tile showing 4 trebuchets and a road is worth 5 points (4 + 1), 10 points when an inn is used in that road (4+1x2).
After the game single points (1-4) for uncompleted road or city. Eventhough all the trebuchets are situated in farms, this does not effect the number of meeples in farms nor do any points apply after the game other than 1-4 as described above.

Exception: when a trebuchet tile has been used for demolition, the tile cannot be occupied by meeples in any way. When then used in a road or a city, normal points apply.

6) When a trebuchet tile is played as (or has become) a landscape tile it remains powerful throughout the game. When the tile lines up with a later formed tower, this tower cannot be built higher then the number of tiles in between this tower and the already placed (or used before) trebuchet tile in its path. They can join however as normal landscape tiles.

Let me know what you thinkl

do you have tile art?

Not yet i'm affraid. Just written the idea down as i got quite inspired by this fan expansion section.  I was just curious what responses this one would generate in plain text :)

Do know already what tiles should be like though.

here's a first low res:

(http://www.thesaurus.co.nl/images/car/3treb01.jpg)

Hello and welcome:)

I like the idea of a way of combating towers


questions

does a single trebuchet tile apply to all towers in range as far as capping goes?
so could I play a 4 trebuchet tile in the range of 3 towers and stop all of them from climbing higher than 4 layers? and reduce just one of them by 4 layers when I play the tile?

should the trebuchet be manned by a meeple to maintain its effect

can I counter the trebuchet effect in any way?

how would this expansion interact with the black tower expansion?

do the trebuchets have an effect over holes in the map the same as towers?

Not sure what you mean. If you mean playing a 1 single trebuchet tile in a way it would effect 2 towers (or more) in range : yes.



Good point. That would be a master move! You would earn 9 points for destroying the 4 layered tower. When the right tile played it can effect more than 1 tower in range, in just one turn. eg when two (or more) 4-layer towers (not meepled) are in range of the 4 trebuchet tile they both (all) can be tore down. 9 points each. Any tower higher than that: 1 point per layer, thus 4 points. However, is there is one meepled tower in range, or a low layered tower (than 4 in this example) the tile cannot be played in that way. After your demolishion move the new towers emerging on the same spots will be restricted in height.
[will adjust rules]


Haven't thought of that yet, i was thinking not.. however, it might be interesting to give that 'tile-upgrading' a thought, i'll have it sink in. Maybe special meeples can be added for it or ownership tiles smt like that. Good suggestion!
It would certainly ask for adjusting rule 5 and 6.


as above, this would certainly enhance the playing of trebuchet tiles. I like this idea. Will think about that. Any thoughts on that welcome.


Don't know. I'm not familiar with tha black tower expansion (yet)



Yes, that was the idea.

if it was that the trebuchet powers only worked when they the tile is first layed or continually if manned then a manned trbuchet tile could be de-meepled allowing other towers to grow again?

just as a tower can steal the guard off another tower to allow that tower to grow again.


to avoid complication you could just award a point for each tower layer you demolish.
9 points for a lot of work completing a cloister as opposed to laying a trebuchet tile in the right place, seems a lot

but a reward of 1-4 points doesn't seem all that high.

I see what you mean, but im not sure yet if you would be able to demolish a lot of complete towers easily, as there can be lower towers in its path blocking the tiles plus the tile must be matching city, road and farm tiles as well. Per tower basically 1 trebuchet tile can be joined to 4 ends of the towers' path corresponding with the towers' height. A 9 point reward seems fair. (opposed to cloisters that can fill gaps in the map easily rewarding you a same 9 points). Having said that, i havent tried out yet as i would want a first version of tiles complete and test it out. I imagine players would want to keep the towers low (or not for that matter) when there's some tiles still left in the deck. There could (ought to) be a lot of tactics involved.

As for your manned tribuchet tile suggestion i'm now flirting with the idea of adding an extra meeple called 'warlord'. Just 1 meeple i reckon switching ownership to anyone playing the last tribuchet tile until the next tribuchet tile is played, giving that player certain extra advantages as the temporary warlord. Haven't thought it over in rule-terms yet, but there would be a possibility with capturing meeples or de-meepling towers. A nice new angle to the expansion i suppose. Thanks for your thoughts on this!

An alternate thought

Each tile has a trebouchet with a number from one to 4

when played you may place a trebouchet master on tile

Each following turn it may demolish (take one later off any tower within its range (the number)

The player controlling the master gets a point and the tower piece.

If at any time no tower in range, the Master returns to your suppy.

Nice one  If I understand you correctly no height restriction will apply to any tower. All tiles -t.i. 1 to 4 trebuchet on them- can be played at any possible joint in the towers' path whichever height, not corresponding with the layers but with the number of turns a layer can be taken off by the warlord? I think i like this.

Yes a tower could be one or 10

but if I place a trebouchet with a four on it and the one or 10 level tower is within 4 tiles, I can start taking it down.

Great! i'll go along with that. Will come up with a 2nd rule version later.

 Here's the first version for tile art (needs some work still in BG colouring or soft toning the trebuchets):

(http://www.thesaurus.co.nl/images/car/Single_Trebuchet _tegel_01.jpg)

Let me know, it’s a first.

I'd go with a single trebuchet and a small number in circle which would indicate its range.

I'd suggest 2 -2s, 2 - 3s, 2- 4's, one 5 and one 6, a total of eight tiles

I really like the idea. I played the tower with the kids yesterday and thought of the fact that it is a little bit too destructive.

thanks for the encouragements :)

Tile suggestion taken, will see what i can come up with for tile art. I doubt the 5 and 6 tile though. As it seems best to have an action to be completed in one turn i will have to think about what rule will best apply to playing a trebuchet tile.

Furthermore, i will provide some 'ballista' tiles, basically new ammunition for an already played trebuchet tile ealier on in the game.

Hope to get something done this week already.

not sure what you mean 'action taken in one turn?' on 5/6 tile

I simply suggest that a tile with a five could reach a tour up to 5 tiles away etc

Ah i misunderstood. In that case it should be all right to add them. thanks.

Welcome Trebuchet, and thank you for contributing to the madness.

I really like your concept. I enjoy strategy play and this would be a good way to enter tactical play in the tower expansion.

As I understand it Rule 5 is only to be used when you are not playing with towers. Is that a correct statement? If not, I would recommend it not be active while playing towers as it would complicate the game beyond its value.

Here's a thought. Make the trebuchet tiles generic with the numbers 1, 2, 3 & 4 on the tile. One in each corner. When the tile is placed within a 4 tile range of one or more towers the player may deploy a follower on the tile as a warlord. On this turn he collects one tower section from any tower in its range and places it on the 1 spot on the tile. He may do this on any of his next three turns, as his wood move, to fill up the 2, 3 & 4 spots, as long as his warlord is still present. He can go at his own rate - it may encompass several turns before the player fills the 4th spot. Once he collects the 4th tower section he receives 9 points and collects the tower sections into his supply area. It is his option if his follower is returned at that time or he remains on the tile to enforce the authority of the trebuchet on the tower tiles aligned with it. If the follower remains on the trebuchet no tower tile in its 4 tile range may be built up more than the number of tiles between it and the trebuchet tile.

Just thinking out loud. Mayber there is something here that you can use.

Happy Carcking!

About what I had suggested  ;D

all right, first off a new concept trebuchet tile according to last posts.

(http://www.thesaurus.co.nl/images/car/trebtile_4dot.jpg)

@ carcking, if you mean that all trebuchet tiles should be having these 4 spots, i would agree on that. In that case i would like to discuss the number of trebuchet tiles bearing this in mind: What I am meaning to add along these trebuchet tiles are the so called ballista tiles (loads of trebuchet stones on a field). Bassically the player who plays a ballista tile can join it to any trebuchet tile-side if desired to reload a particular trebuchet when a new tower has been built during the game. When played while already being a warlord in process of demolishing, a reward is given of 1 point per layer on the trebuchet tile (on top of 9 reward for completing the tiles' spots).

You say: If the follower remains on the trebuchet no tower tile in its 4 tile range may be built up more than the number of tiles between it and the trebuchet tile.

i think i understand this but i'm not sure. You mean like a 'reverse tower' authority for the trebuchet tile?

It needs only one number per tile

that's what was doing until carcking came up with this idea of filling up the four spots. i like that concept, which is pretty much the same what you said, that's what i thought / misunderstood possibly. When you keep on demolishing on every turn all players must be able to check the process esp. over more than 3 turn to avoid mistakes/errors. Particularly when more towers / T-tiles are involved.

on the other hand, the highest number will tell you what the score should be ...

mmm  :o

I think you keep it simpler

Play tile with a number on it, indicating distance the Trebuchet can fire

If you place a marshall on the trebouchet you can, instead of placing wood, remove one level from any tower within range. (Only one oer turn even if you control multiple trebouchets with marshall.

You gain one point and the tower piece.

Yes, similar idea - just a variance on your idea to make all the tiles generic and to have a completion mechanic where the warlord can "complete" his feature and score for more than just one point per tile. Then some lasting authority if he remains on the tile. This is a good rap session.

Yes, that's it - like a reverse tower authority - as long as the warlord is present.

I find the tiles with numbers on corner a bit much. They don't fit the general aesthetics of other game tiles at all.

One trebuchet with a black number would fit general look better.

have to agree on that. I wasn't satisfied with the tiles style, eventhough inspired by the dragontile icon it could be designed better. will work on them single numbered tiles.

last night started a 2nd version of rules taking in account all (most of) the ideas and suggestions in this thread. It looks promising indeed. Hope to finish that tonight and post it for your comments.

rgds michel

Yeah, I don't disagree. It looks kinda busy. If this idea is pursued it might be better to just have tower section icons on it instead of numbers. Or something like that.

found some time to redo the tile art. i personally find them quite all right  ;)  share yr thoughts.

(http://www.thesaurus.co.nl/images/car/tiles.jpg)

Next up the Ballista tiles.

Am still working on the rules, writing them as a draft in the Carc template but it takes more time as I had forseen to be substantial for a revision.

Moreover i might add a section where black tower expansion is involved (not sure yet, need to play first)

Come to think of that how many trebuchet tiles do you reckon would be fit for 2, 3, 4 players playing w/ tower expansion?

I like

as for Black expansion, make it where if it is used a trebuchet may shoot in all 8 directions. Simple and done  :)

Version one of Trebuchet rules is replaced

And the Trebuchet tile art too

Opening story *Now and thEn*

Opening story *Now and thEn*
[/quote]

thanks, all spelling corrections are welcome and will be corrected (i'm Dutch so english is not my native language)

rgds michel

thanks, all spelling corrections are welcome and will be corrected (i'm Dutch so english is not my native language)

rgds michel
[/quote]

I am horrible at spelling/grammar as well and it is my native language lol.

Interesting ideas and artwork {up. Here's my two cents.

We've always found the tower expansion to be too powerful and game changing to be played exactly by the rules. That's why we're usually limiting the number of tower blocks to reduce the tower control area and allow relatively big feature building. Since it's not exactly by the books it has bothered me somewhat and I've looked forward to an expansion such as this to limit the effectiveness of the tower.

However, with that in mind, the rule that the blocks return to your supply once demolished does exactly the opposite! As I see it, circulating tower blocks will effectively prevent high towers from being formed (as to be able to soar high it would have to be on the board for quite a while, but with the trebutchets it would be targeted long before that) and instead favour small towers everywhere. Since the circulating tower blocks amout in supplies would be practically limitless it would make the tower game changing effect even worse. So please, no 'return-to-supply' function for the blocks. And if it's permanently removing blocks from play it'd make sense for it to be quite a bit smaller in tile count than tower (so that every tower base cant be countered with a trebutchet of it's own). 8 tiles sounds about right  :).

How about simply changing the expansion name to trebutchet? Oh yea, this is my 1st post. Been lurking around here for years (I've the same nick in BGG too).

Nweeky, thanks so much for your feedback! Like you we too play the tower with homegrown restrictions. I must say the permanent removal of blocks have not for one moment crossed my mind. It is indeed an excellent way of reducing tower control on the map, which was the aim of designing this expansion. So I'm all for it! I'll wait and see what others might think about this option.

Yes, Trebuchet has a better ring to it hasn't it? I think i'll go along with that too  :)

Naming an expansion by the feature on the new tiles sounds more carcassonne-ish to me, rather than naming after what it does. Nearly all of the official expansions seem to be following this naming pattern.

I dont know if I brought it out too clearly, but the point was that when you're playing the tower expansion normally you've only so many tower-pieces and can capture an equal amount of meeples with them. If the blocks circulate through the trebutchet function back into the supplies the same tower blocks can be used to capture meeples over and over again, thus boosting the tower's effect.

Yes, that's what i understood. You basically are creating more wood in the game bringing back wood in supplies if that isn't dealt with in the rules. I in a way thought of simular problems and came up with the ballista tiles to be able to re-destroy any rebuilt tower previously destroyed by a trebuchet earlier in the game. But that ofcourse wouldn't undo the fact of what you're rightfully are stating of creating even more wood (thus capturing of followers). So taking the wood out of the game clearly would be a better option. Some test playing should show whether or not the Tower expansion vs Trebuchet expansion will be in balance so to speak.

All the same: a very smart observation of this weak spot in the first version.   :)

Pleased to announce the second version as a draft
(previously posted URL's are made unavailable)

Trebuchet tiles are to be found here (http://www.thesaurus.co.nl/images/car/trebuchet_tiles.pdf)

Trebuchet rules V0.2 are to be found here (http://www.thesaurus.co.nl/images/car/Trebuchet_rules_V02.pdf)

@ scott newer rules version in the making

Yeah, I suspected this was still in the draft/review stage so I won't be adding it to the downloads. I'm leaving that for you to do when it's finalized. ;D