Carcassonne Central

This is my first attempt so I'm keeping it simple.

I've found often in mid-late game that people often draw a cloister, but have no followers left to deploy. So what about this:

Pilgrimage

2 Tiles and 2 chips (artwork just for demonstration purposes):

(http://img263.imageshack.us/img263/6981/pilgrimage.jpg)

The 2 tiles are mixed in with the rest at the beginning of the game. The chips are kept to the side (like trade good chips are).

If someone draws a pilgrimage tile, they take one of the chips and put them both in their stash to use later, and draw another tile to resume their turn.

In a later turn, if a player with a pilgrimage tile draws a cloister (and only a cloister may be used with this expansion) but has no followers to deploy, they may remove a monk from a clositer they currently own (but have not completed), place the chip in his place (the hands are meant to signify that unseen 'remaining monks' at the cloister are praying for the newly departed monk on his pilgrimage, and the strength of their prayer is enough to keep his 'presence' i.e. the players possession of the now unmanned cloister, active) and immediately relocate the monk onto the newly drawn clositer tile.

The scoring with the chip either during play or at the end of the game is the same as scoring with a regular follower. Come the end of the game the pilgrimage tile functions in the same way as the abbey tile in that there is no penalty for not using it.

Any thoughts, suggestions, comments?

I'm interested in how this might work with the Shrines expansion too, as I havent played it.

I think it'd work.  As more and more expansions are added to the game, it seems like the scoring value of cloisters and shirnes go down(meaning it's easier to score 9 or more points elsewhere, like for a city).  I would think that not having to use a meeple for these features should help increase its value again.  And I guess  with only two tiles, you wouldn't really need to have a way to signify the owner of each each prayer token, but it would be nice.

As for shrines, they work in the exact same manner as a cloister so I wouldn't see any problem with using it for either one.  The only difference is that when a shrine and cloister are placed next to each other, then points only go to the player that finishes their feature first.

Maybe if everyone got one of these at the start

(http://img28.imageshack.us/img28/5100/chipsrainbow.jpg)

and it only becomes playable if they draw the tile. I usually only play with 1 or 2 others so it didn't really occur to me that it might get confusing with more players if they weren't assigned. Thanks :)

Well, it seems a good idea to me, as Gwommy pointed, cloister/shrines aren´t used very often (unless placing it will score inmediately or there are only two tiles left to finish)

As Gwommy suggested can become an expansion requiring an extra meeple that can be used only on cloistes/shrines.

Ok what about everyone gets 2 chips of their own colour at the start. Then:

1. Player draws a cloister or shrine, deploys monk/heretic
2. Player draws 2nd cloister/shrine, and (if in possession of the pilgrimage tile) so long as the first cloister/shrine is uncompleted may exchange the follower from there for a chip.
3. He immediately places the relocated follower onto the new cloister/shrine, standing on top of the 2nd chip.
4. The chips remain down til the end of the game, but the follower may be returned only when scoring takes place, which in turn may only happen when both of the shrines/cloisters have been completed.
5. Player will then score the standard 9 pts from each of the properties, with...
6. ...an additional bonus of 12 points (if 2 shrines or 2 cloisters have been completed) for a total of 30pts
    or
7. ...a smaller bonus of 6 pts if it was 1 cloister and 1 shrine, for a total of 20pts


So it's basically the Tunnels expansion but for cloisters/shrines with a bonus incentive.


Or maybe it should be only executable when you have zero followers left to place, and with a bigger bonus? The tile, if drawn, is kept in the stash so it could be used at any time by someone with no meeples but already a cloister/shrine on the go.

Wouldn't a bonus of 6 points be a total of 24, not 20? (9+9+6)

==EDIT==
BTW- I think that only having the two prayer tokens is a good idea (no need to draw a tile for it).  Although, when placing your first follower on a cloister, then you should have to place it with the token.  Then when you place a second cloister or shrine, then you may choose to place the other token.  And like you said, it doesn't get scored until both features with the tokens are finished.  And I think the 6 point bonus sounds reasonable.

hehe yes, thanks. Shameful maths skills here ;D

I like your idea with just needing the tokens to do it. But perhaps have just 1 tile in the bag for extra bonus pts...so when scoring, if the player's in possession of the tile, add an extra 10 bonus points on top if it's 1 cloister and 1 shrine, and add 15 bonus points if it's 2 shrines or 2 cloisters?

That way, everyone can play their tokens and get a bonus, but the player with the tile gets an extra bonus, assuming of course they haven't already used their tokens, in which case the tile should probably be removed from the game.

so it'd be:

1 cloiser + 1 shrine = 24 pts, or 34 with the tile
2 cloister/2 shrines = 30 pts, or 45 with the tile

Or perhaps if that's bonus points overkill, the tile can instead be 'cashed in' by the player in possession of it to reclaim his tokens from the board after scoring for one more play of them?

The bonus might be a bit of an overkill.  Also, with only one tile, then only one random player gets the bonus points.  It pretty much negates any skill in earning the points.  Just my opinion.

This sounds like an interesting expansion.  The rules that I think I like the best are...

Everyone gets two chits,
no tile,
use the chit when you run out of followers,
both cloisters with chits must be finished.

It seems to me that there should be no bonus.  Being able to use the chit at all already seems like a 9 point bonus to me.  I feel like the number of available bonus points (with any expansion) should be tied to the difficulty of completing the feature.  This would be fairly easy to complete so should not really yield many/any bonus points.  If we're keeping it simple and all...

That's my two cents. 

My 3 cents  ;D

When a player scores a shrine/cloister with a normal meeple, he gets a pilgrim chit that he can use as a priest meeple from that point on. If he scores another shrine/cloister with a regular meeple he gets another pilgrim. This way encourages the players to use meeples on shrines and reward those player who risk their meeples.

Because running out of meeples hoping to draw a shrine to use a pilgrim chit can be very risky and dont think lot of people will take that risk.

Sincerely shrines/cloister should have more relevance, come on its middle ages, the priest had lot of power and that should be reflected on the game.

I think The Missionary helps with that a little bit.  It can end up sitting there a long time though.  I'm thinking if there would be a way to use The Missionary with this expansion...  Any ideas?

Yeah I agree. Any reward should be skill based, not arbitrary.




I think you're right. It'd be enough to simply have them, but maybe there should be the possibility of a small skill-related bonus

So what about this:

- Everyone gets two tokens,
- No tile,
- Tokens may only be used when the player has no followers left.
- Both cloisters and/or shrines with tokens must be completed in order to score
- The tokens stay on the board after scoring and may not be used again

then, with scoring:

- The original cloister/shrine will always score 9 pts, but when scoring the second cloister/shrine, (the strength of the 1st cloister/shrine's brethrens' prayers being stronger when the most recently placed shrine or cloister is isolated from 'the world' so they can 'concentrate' their prayer to a single location) it scores the standard 9pts, plus an additional 1pt for each of the 8 surrounding tiles that have no city parts on them. And if the 2nd cloister/shrine remains uncompleted at the end of the game, each city tile is -1 pt from the total.

That way there is an element of risk and also some skill as to where the player decides to place their 2nd tile. Also it's a one-time action that everyone can perform, and the potential 8pt bonus can be diminished by other players thus more strategy.

That sounds pretty good.  As long as it's not automatic.  You'll have to make sure you can clearly explain it though.

The discussion seems to have moved away from the idea of bonuses being based on cloister/shrine, cloister/cloister or shrine/shrine combinations, but in gunpowdertea's last post it still listed that "- Both cloisters and/or shrines with tokens must be completed in order to score."

This brings to mind the thought that one way or the other cloisters and shrines are supposed to represent opposing religions, hence the competion for completion.  It wouldn't make sense for a monk on a cloister to pilgrimage to a shrine and become a heritic.  Perhaps this has already been clarified but it seems like this expansion should only be used between two cloisters or two shrines, not a mix of both.  Otherwise though I'm excited to try this.

I agree...

Yeah I agree too actually. The only reason I omited that rule was because I thought the opportunity to play the tokens would decrease, but I think that actually might be a good thing. And also yes, it makes no sense for a monk to become a heretic on a pilgrimage. Maybe thats another expansion altogether...'the treacherous defector' of something ^^


What do you mean by 'automatic'?

I guess what I mean is that the bonus should something you have to plan for and work toward, not automatic or something that is so easy that everyone gets it at the end of the game.  That would render it mute.

ok so, so far:


Pilgrimage

Extra Pieces

• This expansion consists of 12 coloured tokens - 2 of each in the standard player colours


Preparation

• Distribute the tokens so each player has 2 of his own colour prior to starting the game


Gameplay

In order to use the tokens and leave on a pilgrimage, the player must meet two requirements at the time of drawing a shrine or a cloister tile:

1. The player must have no followers in his possession to deploy.
2. The player must own on the board an uncompleted feature of the same classification, that is, if the player draws a shrine, he must have an uncompleted shrine on the the board, and if he draws a cloister, he must have an uncompleted cloister on the board.


If these requirements are met then the player may lay the tile in accordance with the rules and deploy to this tile the follower from the uncompleted feature. The player then places one of their tokens on the tile the follower has just been removed from, and the other token is placed underneath the follower that has just been moved.


As the two features are now linked, no scoring takes place until both features containing the Pilgrimage tokens have been completed or at the end of the game.

Final Scoring

Upon both features being completed, or at the end of the game, the scoring is as follows:

• For the first feature with only the token on it, the player scores 1 pt per tile in it's territory, as standard.

• For the feature with both the follower and the token, they only score the surrounding tiles without city features, and score 2 pts for each of these. Any tile in this feature's territory with any city parts is not scored.


---------

Any thoughts? Also I'm wondering about if either of the two lost to a competing shrine or cloister. I'm thinking that since the tokens remain on the board for the duration of the game, the tile with just the token on should be immune to competition...(or not??) But maybe the one with the follower and the token can get beaten in a competition (no score for the player on the pilgrimage at this stage and the follower is returned to their stash) BUT the token remains and can be scored like the first with just 1pt for every tile (although that might be in the player's benefit e.g. if they were surrounded by city tiles they might score more for 1pt per tile than 2pt's for every non-city tile).

OR

If either of the features are beaten by a neighbouring cloister or shrine in competition; because they are linked the follower is returned to the player and he scores 0 for both.

Thoughts?

So much for a simple expansion, eh? So many possibilities. I think the above will probably work fine if you're only playing with cloisters. 

Throwing shrine into the mix really does seem to change things. My thoughts on this is that if you're playing with shrines, then you should be able to use the tokens even if you have followers remaining in your supply.  In case of a challenge, both of your cloisters or shrines must be completed before your opponent's cloister or shrine in order to score the points, otherwise you don't score as in the rules of losing a challenge.  It's a chance that you have to take if you want the extra points.

But how often do people play with the shrines?  I never use them unless I'm playing a Mega-Carcassonne game.

hehehe yeah I thought this would be nice and simple  :'( ^^

so ok, if we simplify it thusly:

Pilgrimage

Extra Pieces

• This expansion consists of 12 coloured tokens - 2 of each in the standard player colours


Preparation

• Distribute the tokens so each player has 2 of his own colour prior to starting the game


Gameplay

In order to use the tokens and leave on a pilgrimage, the player must meet two requirements at the time of drawing a cloister tile:

1. The player must have no followers in his possession to deploy*.
2. The player must be in ownership of an uncompleted cloister**

* - unless playing with the shrines expansion, in which case the tokens may be used if the player has deployable followers or not.
** - if playing with shrines, the newly drawn tile's feature must be of the same classification as an owned and uncompleted feature; that is to say, if the player draws a shrine, he must have an uncompleted shrine on the the board, and if he draws a cloister, he must have an uncompleted cloister on the board.

If these requirements are met then the player may lay the cloister tile in accordance with the rules and deploy to this tile the follower from the uncompleted cloister. The player then places one of their tokens on the tile the follower has just been removed from, and the other token is placed underneath the follower that has just been moved.


As the two cloisters are now linked by the Pilgrimage tokens, no scoring takes place until both features have been completed or at the end of the game.

Final Scoring

Upon both cloisters being completed, or at the end of the game, the scoring is as follows:

• For the cloister with only the token on it, the player scores 1 pt per tile in it's territory.

• For the cloister with both the follower and the token, the player only scores the surrounding tiles without city features, receiving 2 pts for each of these. Any tile in the cloister's territory with any city parts depicted on it is not scored.

[If playing with the shrines expansion - in the case of a challenge, both of the player's cloisters or shrines must be completed before their opponent's cloister or shrine in order to score the points. If the player is beaten by their opponent, they receive no points for either feature. If both of the players in competition are using the tokens, then the first to complete both of their features wins the points. If a challenge has not been resolved by the end of the game, both players receive the points from their own tokened features, with 1pt per tile for the first feature, and 2pts per tile with no city for the second feature.]

--------
That work better?

LoL!  Looks good to me! (http://gwommy.homestead.com/files/PurpleSmileThumbsUp.gif)

How will this interact with the Dragon, Catapult or the Tower?

I'd assume the meeple can be taken and the two cloisters lost as consequence of the link between them.  But does anything happen to the token alone...there isn't a meeple to eat, seduce or capture because he's pilgrimaging. I'm assuming not but just wanted to clarify.  Also if the meeple is seduced by the Catapult do you exchange both tokens for the new player's or do they take them over and still have their own tokens to use?
 
Which I guess all implies the question...are the cloisters permanently linked no matter what happens (like the tunnels) or is it based on the meeple figure pilgrimaging?

I'd suggest replacing the tokens with the new player's tokens, but then I realized, "What if their tokens are already in play?"

I'd say that because the tokens signify the two tiles are linked, any capture, seduction or dragon gobblage that happens to one, has the same effect on the other, with the one follower (on tile 2) acting as proxy meeple for both and in case of any prisoner taking on tile 1.

e.g. - player 1 is on pilgrimage. player 2 builds tower and captures player 1's tile 1 (with just the token). Follower from player 1's tile 2 is taken prisoner and the tokens removed from the game.


With the dragon: if the dragon lands on either of the two tiles, the tokens are removed from the game and the follower is returned to the player.


I think with the Catapult: If either is seduced, the catapulting player may swap his tokens (assuming he hasn't played them yet) and a follower directly with the player's currently on the board. If his tokens are already in play then he may deploy 1 follower onto the cloister (or shrine) that was closest to the seduction token when it landed.


[The idea being that the only entitlement the player has to tile 2 is based on the strength of ownership gifted him by the 'praying' from tile 1's token, so if tile 1 is compromised, tile 2 has no 'buoyancy']


That sound ok? I'm wary of making it too easy because of the potential bonus points for the player playing the tokens, so I don't think Tile 1 should be granted any immunity from attack.

So really the two tokens and the meeple all represent one follower and any affect on any part of that set is treated as affecting the whole when applying unique expansion rules. 

I think that sounds fair enough.  Clearly defining that makes it easier to combine with any other expansion without needing specific explanations in the rule set for Pilgrimage.

And just to be difficult, I think that those features shouldn't affect the tokens, but if the follower on a token is affected, then both tokens should be returned to its owner.  But, it's what ever you choose to do, GPT.

Thinking about it I agree with you gwommy.

If a player is using the tokens, he might easily find himself in a situation where one or both of the cloisters are rendered unfinishable until drawing the 1 or 2 tiles with the right configuration to complete both and score. In my experience, this can often last for a long while, so during this time, if using some of the crueller expansions, he's doubly open to attack for a potentially long time if both tokens are prone, which seems perhaps unfair as the bonus isn't huge.

In terms of tokens being returned to a player it makes sense because although they could be used more than once, there are conditions for using them, which aren't always going to be met. Admittedly if using shrines then one condition is removed, but actually by adding shrines the other condition is statistically less likely to be met so I guess that's fine too. Also, it's just easier if the tokens are not on the board without a follower.

So: token w. no follower = immune from any attack; token w. follower = prone to attack and if follower is removed from the tile the tokens are returned to the player (and I guess now they're returned if both features are completed and scored before the end of the game) Sound fair/balanced, or too generous?

I think either way is fine as long as its clearly defined.  I think this last summary sounds good without being to generous.  I think the conditions are specific enough this won't be a runaway point stealer but a nice ace in the hole when the situation is right.

Ok first draft of final rules. Please poke it for holes and tell me if it's easily understandable or not :)



Pilgrimage

In times of great hardship the religious men may sometimes surrender themselves to the power of prayer in order to prevail. One with much fortitude and bravery is chosen to embark on a pilgrimage to plant the seed of their faith in a remote location in the land of Carcassonne and through his pious brethren's targeted genuflection he is bouyed on his journey of enlightenment.


Extra Pieces

• This expansion consists of 12 coloured tokens  (2 of each in the standard player colours)


Preparation

• Distribute the tokens so each player has 2 of his own colour prior to starting the game


Gameplay

In order to use the tokens and leave on a pilgrimage, the player must meet two requirements at the time of drawing a Cloister tile:

1. The player must have no followers in his possession to deploy*.
2. The player must be in ownership of an uncompleted Cloister**

* - If playing with The Cult expansion, the tokens may also be used with Shrines. The player may also use his tokens whether he has deployable followers or not when using this expansion.
** - If playing with The Cult, the newly drawn tile's feature must be of the same classification as an owned and uncompleted feature; that is to say, if the player draws a Shrine, he must have an uncompleted Shrine on the board, and if he draws a Cloister, he must have an uncompleted Cloister on the board.

If these requirements are met then the player may lay the new Cloister tile in accordance with the rules and transfer to this tile the follower from the uncompleted Cloister. The player then places one of their tokens on the tile the follower has just been transferred from, and the other token is placed underneath the follower that has just been relocated.


The two Cloisters are now linked by the Pilgrimage tokens, so no scoring takes place until both features have been completed or at the end of the game.

[ If using Carcassone expansions which allow followers to be removed e.g The Princess and the Dragon, The Catapult, The Tower; the tile with just the token on may not be targeted and is in effect immune to attack. The tile with both the token and the follower however is susceptible to attack, capture or removal and in that event, both tokens are returned to the player's supply. In the case of Seduction from The Catapult expansion, only the tile with the follower is prone and if it is hit then both tokens may be swapped for those of a different players, with their follower deployed on the same tile as the previous player's follower was removed from.]

[If playing with The Cult expansion - One Shrine may challenge either of the two tiles with tokens on. In this case, both of the player using the token's Cloisters or Shrines must be completed before their opponent's Cloister or Shrine in order to score the points. If the player is beaten by their opponent, they receive no points for either feature and their follower and tokens are returned. If both of the players in competition are using the tokens, then the first to complete both of their features wins the points. If a challenge has not been resolved by the end of the game, both players receive the points from their own tokened features.]

Final Scoring

Upon both Cloisters being completed, or at the end of the game, the scoring is as follows:

• For the Cloister with only the token on it, the player is awarded 1 pt per tile in it's territory, as a normal Cloister would be scored.

• For the Cloister with both the follower and the token, the player only scores the surrounding tiles without city features, receiving 2 pts for each of these. Any tile in the cloister's territory with any city parts depicted on it is not scored.
.
The follower and tokens are now returned to the player's supply.

Suggested edits...

Pilgrimage

In times of great hardship the religious men may sometimes surrender themselves to the power of prayer in order to prevail. One with much fortitude and bravery is chosen to embark on a pilgrimage to plant the seed of their faith in a remote location in the land of Carcassonne and through his pious brethren's targeted genuflection he is bouyed on his journey of enlightenment.

...

Gameplay

In order to use the tokens and leave on a pilgrimage, the player must meet two requirements at the time of drawing a Cloister tile:

1. The player must have no followers in his possession to deploy.*
2. The player must be in ownership of an uncompleted Cloister.**

...

If these requirements are met then the player may lay the new Cloister tile in accordance with the rules and transfer to this tile the follower from the uncompleted Cloister to this tile. The player then places one of their tokens on the uncompleted cloistertile the follower has just been transferred from, and the other token is placed underneath the follower on the newly claimed cloisterthat has just been relocated.


The two Cloisters are now linked by the Pilgrimage tokens.  No scoring for either cloister will take so no scoring takes place until both features have been completed or at the end of the game.

...

[If playing with The Cult expansion - One Shrine/cloister may challenge either of the two cloisters/shrines tiles with tokens on them. In this case, both of the cloisters/shrines with tokensplayer using the token's Cloisters or Shrines must be completed before their opponent's Cloister or Shrine in order to score the points. If the player is beaten by their opponent, they receive no points for either feature and their follower and tokens are returned. If both of the players in competition are using the tokens, then the first to complete both of their features wins the points. If a challenge has not been resolved by the end of the game, both players receive the points from their own tokenesd features.]

...

These are just a few grammatical suggestions...though I realize I used Bold to designate added text and you have a few things in there that were bold already for emphasis. Sorry, that might make it a little confusing. My bolds were purely possible additoinal text...not bolds for emphasis.

Apparently I'm the last one who commented on this post.  This is another expansion that seems to be right there but just needs some rules and such.  Are you still out there gunpowdertea? 

Trying to move some of these old unfinished expansions along I went ahead and made a rule sheet up from gunpowdertea's rules.  I only edited them to fit the format of the rules template as best I felt it worked.  Please take a look and offer editing suggestions or general rule change/clarification suggestions. I will throw together a download sheet for the tokens and put that up too.

Rules: http://www.mediafire.com/?g2agjmf7je23qie (http://www.mediafire.com/?g2agjmf7je23qie)

Tokens: http://www.mediafire.com/?djmkdbd35v4gq2n (http://www.mediafire.com/?djmkdbd35v4gq2n)

I only found minor edits. "They" should be used when referring to multiple players. When using the term "each", that refines it down to referring to a single player, therefore "him" or "he" should be used instead.

Also, I could be mistaken, but I thought it was agreed to not use the british spelling of the word "colors" for our write-ups. Assuming this is correct, there's 2 instances which would need to be changed.

Distribute to each player the two Pilgrimage tokens of their his corresponding colour.

If their his tokens are already in play, they he exchanges only the follower and the cloister with only the other Pilgrimage tokens is left vacant are returned to the owner's supply.

==EDIT==
Forgot to mention that the title of the expansion should also be put in the header.

/begin gendered and grammatical history aside

Technically, "they" and its derivatives were used to denote what today is noted as "it", the gender neutral form of "his" or "her". Despite current grammatical norms, it is not, in fact, wrong to use it to denote grammatically neuter singulars. When writing rules, using "he" and "his" suggests a gendered stereotype that only men play games. Using "they" is politically and grammatically correct, even if it is not in current usage. Grammatical patterns suggest that this form is on the rise, replacing "it".

/end gendered and grammatical history aside

Not to say that you're wrong, but I was told by a high school english teacher friend of mine, and she said it's acceptable to use he, him, or his if you don't know the gender or if you are using it in a situation where the subject could be either male or female. Just thought I'd point it out and let you know where I'm getting the mixed signals. I, personally, still don't like the way that "they" sounds when used in the singular form.

Hence the "despite current grammatical norms" part. Most teachers at all levels instruct people to use the masculine form for the neuter, but that is being viewed as increasingly sexist/gendered and many parts of society, largely due to texting oddly, are reverting to the pre-19th century usage of "they", which was the singular neuter form. It was Victorian linguists mostly that genderized our language. In fact, you can blame the Victorians for a lot of strange developments in history.

Neutered Victorians aside...

Here is the updated rule sheet and token sheet.

Rules: http://www.mediafire.com/?tm85kz06405na3i (http://www.mediafire.com/?tm85kz06405na3i)

Tokens: http://www.mediafire.com/?c0dn77nbncminum (http://www.mediafire.com/?c0dn77nbncminum)

BlueDogs!  You're working hard on these logan.

I'm just putting the finishing touches on work others have done but they've sadly moved on from cc.  Seems a shame the energy and ingenuity that went into these should be wasted.  I'm just formatting rule sheets.  :)