Carcassonne Central

Hi to all the tiles makers :)

Has somebody thought about road tiles with a roadblock? (one or two crossed wagons on the road with some people around), once drawn they could be deployed in place of an existing road tile (like the besieged cloister) and that way closing one part of the road and leaving the other opened or making one road two different roads. Very useful for those long roads with inns :)

Also been thinking in tiles with a road toll (a small house with a penant next to the road, can have a wood barrier across the road). Not sure about what would be better for them, reduce the value of the road or forbid the wagon using that road (personally think this would be easier) if the wagon is already in a road and then the road toll is deployed the wagon would return to the owner supply. One last option is; if using the tradingposts variant, the road toll would block that road for the tradingpost score purpouses.

Give me your thoughts about it.

If it is a Road Block, why not just declare the road closed...no points are/can be awarded, no points deducted. Owner's meeple would be frozen for the rest of the game. (Owner's meeple would be treated like any other wood when played with other expansions.)


I would think that 5 tiles would be a good number:  3 Tolls and 2 Roadblock.

Hi Curmudgeon.

The roadblock capturing the thief can be a good idea, kind of Gallows, but keeping the meeple for the rest of the game can be very bad for the owner. Maybe would freeze (keeping it out of scoring) the meeple until the road is finished (like the gallows).

So the player who puts the roadblock would choose one meeple on it to be "captured"

About the number of tiles, shouldnt be more than 6 and maybe depending of the number of expansion use more or less of the tile on the mix.

This sounds like an interesting idea.  I think I'd be opposed to losing a meeple for the rest of the game too.  That seems a little too powerful.  I think using a roadblock to cut a long road down is a great idea. 

When I think of the toll house, I'm thinking of it as a meeple.  Maybe it could be the settlement from Catan and it could function on a road similarly to a barn on a farm.  Any thoughts  on that?

That sounds good.  So you'd choose to move one meeple on the road to help clean up the road block until the road was finished.  But would it then still be splitting the road in two sections?  And if there was only one follower on the road, could you then claim that road? Or only the part on the other side of the road block?

Good idea, although I'm not sure about how the point system would work for that because it would involve using fractions.  For example, attaching a follower to a road with a toll house scores that follower for 1/3 of the length of road.  So my opinion would be to score it differently than the barn, but I'm not sure how.

When I thought first of the roadblock the idea was to separate one road in two different roads, so in case there were several meeples on it, the player who draw it could use it to make the oponent road shorter, that was the reason of being able to put in on top of and already existing road.

With the other option of using it to capture a thief, then the roadblock wont split the road just capture one of the thiefs on that road, as with the gallows rules that meeple wont exist until the road is finished, meaning that other players can deploy followers in that road (unless there was two thiefs before drawing the roadblock).

The biggest inconvenient to using the toll house as a meeple like the barn is that the barn can score a lot of points, because fields usually are big, but roads are not (even with inns only 2 points per tile). The farmers without the barn remain there until the end of the game, while thiefs can be recovered easily.

If you want to use it in a barnish way, then guess should have to be deployed on a road crossings and in that moment the player with more thiefs in those roads will score all the roads (even if the roads are not finished) and recover all the thiefs. If a road is connected later to the road containing the toll it should be scored normally (1 per road tile or 2 with a inn). Also at the end of the game the toll will give two point for every finished road nex to it (maximun 8 points in a 4 roads crossing). with the toll meeple the wagon blocker ability wont be used. In this way the toll is more powerful than I originally thought.

Still thinking and open to further ideas. I personally prefer new tiles than new meeples, for my wife is easier to play with tiles than with meeples (never played with her with barns or wagons) ;D

Alright, I definitely read that wrong about the roadblock being played on top of a road tile already in play.  I'm going to guess that you wouldn't be able to place the roadblock on top of a tile that doesn't completely match it and on a tile that doesn't have any meeple on it, right?

For the toll roads, placing your toll booth(or whatever it is) on a road intersection sounds great!  It also sounds like to me that when you finish all the roads in the roads on that intersection, that you should be able to get your toll booth back to use again, because having to finish four roads just to earn 8pts does not sound like it's too powerful to me. 

Continuing on that idea, if you place a toll road on an intersection, and there's a thief on the road with an inn, shouldn't they score 0pts since the inn is double or nothing?  On the other hand, it would be possible to have a follower on a road that has an ending, and then connects the open end to the road with toll booth and the inn on the road and be able to the usual double points for that road.  I think the points for the thieves on those roads should be scored as if it was the end of the game, but again, that's just my opinion.

With my first option of the roadblock (the one that cuts the road in two differents) it would be played as the besieged cloister, check breweries rules page one,can be played as per normal or to replace a road of the same road/city/field/cloister etc... configuration.

There is no need to exist a follower in that tile to place the roadblock, the closest to the opponent thief you put the raodblock, the better because that means less points for him. Also if there are no thiefs on the new road, one thief can be deployed on the new road.

About using the toll house as a meeple, it would be more or less like a barn. It would have to be deployed on one intersection (2, 3 or 4 roads). The moment a player put his toll house, check all the roads leaving the intersection the toll house, the player with majority of thieves (totalling all the roads) will score all the roads as if were finished (more or less as a barn does with the farms, but in this case also unfinished roads counts to help a little with the score, so roads with inns score 2 points per tile in that road). After this all the thiefs on the roads return to their owners supplies, the toll house, however,  remains.

As with the barn, no player can put followers on a road connected to a toll house, of course connecting two roads with toll houses is quite legal. If a player places a tile that connects a road without toll house with a road with a toll house, the new long road is scored. With this scoring however a player only gets one point per tile if there is an inn in that road. (This is exactly to the test of scoring through connecting farms from the barn, but adapted to roads).

At the end of the game the owner of the toll house earns 2 or 3 (not sure about how many points, let me know your ideas) points for every finished roads that touch the toll house.

A toll house may not be removed, either for the dragon, the tower, or other follower removing things (a toll house is exactly like a barn for this purpuoses).

In resume a toll house would be like a barn for roads. Score when is played by the player with thiefs majority, later can give points if somebody finished a road connected to a toll house (although one point less by tile) and at the end of the game will give points to the owner of the toll house for every finished road touching it.

Hope is more clear now.  ;)

That sounds pretty good.  I'm not sure about scoring 2 or 3 points at the end of the game for each finished road the the toll house touches either.

I still have some good questions though. 
1. Can a toll house be placed on an intersection if that intersection has a follower on the road of the intersection tile itself?
2. When you place a toll house on an 4 corner intersection and score for the followers, would you score each road seperately or does the intersection tile only get counted once?
3. This is probably a yes, but I want to make sure, if you place your toll house on an 4-corner intersection, none of the roads are finished and you have the only follower on any of the roads, do you also score the points for the 3 unclaimed roads?

Now looking at Question #3, it's starting to sound a little too powerful.  Turn 1, lay down a 4-intersection tile and place a thief on it, Turn 2, Delpoy your toll house and collect points for 4 roads!  Perhaps it should be re-evaluated.  Hmm...

Some of my suggestions to maybe solve that problem would be that you can't play a toll house until there are tiles on all four sides of the intersection, and perhaps the player with the majority of followers on the roads touching the intersection only scores for the roads that were occupied by a follower.

I like the barn idea- how about 2 points per road segment, but inns don't add to the score... (more like the barn)

Yes, I would think that some modifications would need to be made.

No as placing the toll house is moving the wood, and you can only move the wood on a new drawn tile (this is a difference with the barn, as the barn is placed in the center of four fields) the toll house is placed on a intersection, so no meeple can be in that tile.
I would say that every road is scored, so a four roads intersection would give itself four points, think that is taxes what we are talking here, so every road should give points, thats why a four roads toll house is better than a two roads toll house. Like a farmer in a cccc tile can potentially give 12 points.
Yes, you will get points for all the roads even unclaimed.
If you lay first the intersection, the thief has to be placed on one road, then on turn 2 you have to draw another intersection and place the toll house there, in that way the scoring would be the number of roads in the toll house tile plus the road where the thief was. It may seems powerful, but I think the barn is more powerful, 3 o4 points per complete city, plus recovering the other way frozen farmers.

Sincerely think that the toll house would be better used later, where the chances of getting more points are bigger as there are more road tiles.

Also as people seems to like more the toll house as a meeple, we can forget the roadblock tiles here. So it will be now a expansions require extra meeples.

As I wrote earlier:

Ahh...I see.  So you can only deploy your  toll house to a tile that you just drew.  That definitely makes it less powerful and more acceptable.

What about deploying a toll house using the magic portal from the Princess and Dragon?

I checked one mistake that can make the toll house very powerful, as I worte earlier
Would have to change it to: If a player places a tile that connects a road without toll house with a road with a toll house, the new long road is scored when is finished.

This way players are forced to finish the roads to score additionally with the toll house. And the owner of the toll house as well if he wants the final extra points :)


As per the FAQ
For all game purpouses the toll house is exactly like a Barn

Let me know any further ideas or questions

Looks good to me.   ;D  I can't think of anything else.

Thanks.  8)

Well, guess have to wait for the rest of the people to give the green light.

Will try to make the rules with the template. The biggest problem i find is how to place the icon of the catan city that will be used as toll house on the template. Also how to make examples of tile placement and scoring. Any help would be really apreciated.

The fan-based expansion Monestaries also used the Catan houses.  It doesn't show a picture of them by the description, but there is a footnote that mentions where to get the pieces and the fact that you may have to paint some since some of the colors are different.

If you have a pic already that you want to use and you're using MS Word, then I'd suggest inserting a 1x2 table and putting the pic in one box and the description in another.

I'm not sure how other people make examples for their instructions.  If I were to do it, I'd go to my photo editing program and start a huge blank drawing and then copy and paste everything into it and the crop it down.

Hi again, just finished the first draft of the toll house rules. How can I share it the rest of the people to get feedback?

Unluckily my computer is for gaming, so dont have any image or photo programs (dont even have the microsoft office) so if somebody could give a hand with the examples, he can add his name to the credits  ;)

Regards

My guess would be meepleater or Joff.  Those guys are pretty good.  JPutt is also very good, but has been quite busy lately and hasn't been around much.  You could PM them.

Well I´ll wait for somebodys offer :)

Anywhere where i can post the draft?

There is nowhere on this site.  You should upload it onto media fire or another file sharing site (or your own site) and post the link here.  That's the standard practice.

I guess i can give the examples a shot- PM me what do you need done.

http://www.mediafire.com/?ycjblzhzxwy

First draft of the rules, let me know what do you think.

Do you just want thoughts for now and spelling and grammar checking later?

I did come up with a couple more questions that probably should be mentioned somewhere in the rules:

1.  If the toll house is deployed to one of the intersecting roads is on an inn, does that road count as zero?  I'd imagine that any followers would still count as part of the majority when scoring for the roads though.

2. If there's a tie, do all the participating players get all the points?

3. If there are no followers on any of the connecting roads, then are no points given?

Hum, guess you are talking about scoring uncompleted roads when the toll house is placed. In this case the scoring counts all roads as if were completed, so roads with inns give two points per tile (more customers to be taxed ;) )

Yes

No points given

Also been talking with meepleater about the final scoring capability for the toll house, do you think 3 points per completed road is fair? or to make it more powerful as the barn is, all completed roads touching the toll house are scored again?

I think 3 points is fair, or 4 points at the max.  But I think scoring all the roads again would be over kill.

Say that about the barn, scores the cities twice during the game. Definitely thats an over kill meeple.

Also scoring the roads at the end would promote making long roads rather than making 2 tiles roads just to get the bonus

Lets see what the rest of the people have to say :)  Any thoughts are well come

I reckon score 3 points for each completed connected road (connected being like trading post, with connection ended by cloister, tower or city)

Just to check to make sure that I'm understanding what you're saying correctly:  In the example below, if someone was able to hoard all the major intersections into one area, blue would score 3 points for each finished road, so that would be 21 points?
(http://gwommy.tripod.com/carcassonne/Example1.jpg)

That's what I think, I think elmendalerenda was going for 9 points.

I was also thinking just 9 points, but I suppose that'll probably work.  I guess you'd also have to specify that a toll house can't go on an intersection that has a tower, or cloister in the middle of it.  And supposedly there's that intersection on a tile from Inns and Cathedrals where the road looks like it goes straight through between two cities and also connects the cities.  I'm guessing that it would be a legal placement for a toll house, but you wouldn't get the points for the two tiny roads leading to each city, right?
(http://gwommy.tripod.com/carcassonne/WeirdIntersection.jpg)

For my idea, no, but remeber, its not my expansion, its all up to what elmendalerenda decides...

According to the first draft, the final score for the toll house is 3 points per finished road that touches the toll house, so according to gwommy example blue would score 9 points for the completed roas at N, E and S, not 21.

What meepleater suggested is making the toll house more powerful, kind of barn. Following his suggestion a toll house will score at  the end of the game 3 points per finished road that is connected being like trading post, with connection ended by cloister, tower or city. So in Gwommy example (lucky the blue player he got most of the T intesections of the game) it would score 21 points. But other player could have placed his toll house in the intersection from the princess and dragon tile and score 21 as well. This is the same with the barn, is better to make two tiles cities than making them bigger, but thats the way the rules are written. To avoid this with the toll house I suggested scoring the roads again, you could score lots of points, but forces you to make longer roads.

So I would say that the final scoring ability for the toll house will be scoring all completed roads touching the toll house.

The toll house cant be placed on a cloister or tower intersection thats correct, will add it to the rules.

About the tile from inns and cathedrals in that tile there is no intersection. Just a straight road with two small branches to separate the fields, so the toll house cant be placed there.

Maybe count one point per tile in that road network? otherwise a tile could be scored potentially four times, but its up to you. Actually, the I&C tile IS an intersection, but when HiG realised it looked so confusing, they changed it in a later edition to include bushes where the roads meet. Most people now recognise it as ending the roads.

Dohh, you are right about the I&C tile, I have the Big box version with bushes. Also forgot that every crossing is treated as an intersection (damned grammar). But there are fan made tiles witha T crossing that is not a intersection so confused every thing in my mind. Think that now every intersection comes with a feature to make it clear isn´t?.

After some thinking I will go for this final scoring:

Final scoring:

At the end of the game, the player with the toll house on an intersection scores normal points for every completed road that touches the toll house.

This way the toll house follows the purpose of making long roads to get more taxes and avoid small roads to get easy points.

So in Gwommy´s example the blue player will score at the end of the game 6 points (cheap road builder  :-p)

Hope people agrees and accepts it :)

Anyway, still open to comments and further questions until the final version is made (meepleater or Gwommy need a hand from you to insert the examples).  :D

 

Here are the two examples you asked for. I hope you like them:

(http://i585.photobucket.com/albums/ss294/meepleater/tollhouse1.jpg)

Showing how the tollhouse scores at the end of the game, you can work out the exact points.

(http://i585.photobucket.com/albums/ss294/meepleater/tollhouse2.jpg)

Wagon movement:
A- the wagon is there
B- no, road is complete
C- yes
D- no, due to tollhouse
E- no, there is tollhouse and road is also complete

Sorry they're a bit blurry, but you will be shrinking them down a bit. If you need any other images, just ask.

Sweet  ;D

With that example the toll house would score at the end of the game 8 points (2 for E, 2 for B and 4 for A)

Looks good.  However I don't understand:

"If a player places a tile that connects a road without toll house to one with toll house, the road would be scored when finished, but every tile will give one point less than normal."

Who scores that road?  And if the road does not have an inn, does that mean it scores no points since each tile would give 0 points?

The player with a meeple in the road will score it. No meeple, no scoring.

Yes, it means if not inn, no score (traders have been taxed already ;) ). This way the owner of the toll house owner would be the most interested in finishing the roads, although it will score less for him at the end of the game the finished roads would be scored normally again.

Also the toll house can be used to reduce road scoring for other players

Remember in case of doubt it would act as a barn for roads.

As soon I have more time will update the rules, having moved recently dont let me too much time off.